Speakers for low wattage amp tube

[Kartingboy]

Ciao K,

Love Genoa and Pesto!

My first horn speaker was the Avantgarde Uno. Was driven by a Wavelength 2a3/45 mono block amplifier. Perfect match, but the 'shout' was overbearing
at times. I would try to buy used and search for any speaker with a dB above 96. Currently listening to Cabasse and Accuphase integrated.
Try to find a horn loaded speaker to listen to....

Pesto is top and Genoa is a very beautiful city in my opinion too. With a lot of problems but beautiful.

For used speakers I would see at audio note or klipsch.
Also tannoy are very interesting but I find them too much polite maybe. Anyway they sound very good.
I intend Dual concentric driver models of course.

Also DIY projects aren't a bad idea at all. I'm going to consider it seriously. Why not.

 

[Kartingboy]

Thank you Very much Jim.
My best wish is to have the best results from that little amp
8008 corner looks very cool. Its size would be great for my needs.

 

[MarkS]

From the moment the OP was posted, this reply was coming as sure as death and taxes

As well it should be.

Tube amps either (1) sound the same as all other properly functioning amps, or (2) add distortion of one kind or another. Some people find the distortion added by some tube amps to be euphonic with some speakers and some types of music. If someone is in that camp, and wants to spend their money on such a tube amp, it's fine with me, but I still think it's a service provided by ASR members to point out the facts ahead of time. For people who don't want to avail themselves of that service, there a like a zillion other sites that will endorse tube-amp woo.

Meanwhile, somebody really needs to program up a DSP tube-amp emulator.

 

[jae]

If someone wants advice on high-efficiency loudspeakers to drive with their little valve, I don't see the point in proposing something totally different.
He likes what he bought, he just wants advice on speakers.

We don't necessarily have to direct anyone on this site to the things we like, especially if those who ask do so politely and without any controversy, as in this case.

Returning to the thread, for now the pair of klipsch rp8000fs are around 1500 euros and should have good sensitivity (the manufacturer declares imaginative values like 98db but in reality they should still be close to 93/94 db) for me they are also very beautiful to be seen with the big copper woofers

I agree it's important to be polite, and admittedly I was tempted to give an answer similar to @MAB although I refrained and tried to hand it over to someone else I happen to completely agree with MAB's post, although if the OP is insistent and absolutely wants to use this amplifier at least he can still be helped with a well-performing speaker suggestion in the limited constraints of what he needs or wants to work with.

@Kartingboy There's lots of information on the forum, and the youtube channel is nice too for a number of key topics if you are interested. The science side of things convincingly demonstrates that characteristics like flat on-axis frequency response, distortion, directivity, room characteristics etc. are 95-99% of the equation when it comes to perceived sound quality, so many that adhere to the science here on ASR will go to great lengths to use transparent electronics (avoiding the harmonic distortion or non-linearities in frequency response caused by tubes with certain loads, for example) and speakers that measure accurately, with emphasis on the loudspeaker end since it is the largest contributor by a long shot and the one worth spending your budget on. It can even be argued that if one understands the science and wishes goodwill unto others it is perhaps a moral imperative to give advice similar to what @MAB did if the goal is helping another user achieve true "high-fidelity" reproduction versus "this sounds amazing to me" reproduction, especially when there is a possibility of a new or inexperienced member believing they have to spend more money on an boutique product only to get measurably worse objective performance. I think new members might take this as a narrow-minded/opinionated view or even aggression, but I see it more of a gesture to get newcomers on the right path and letting them know they are "leaving performance on the table" with certain purchase decisions if they don't already understand. It's also fine if none of this matters to you, but understanding the implications definitely helps one make better consumer decisions on product choices/expectations. Many simple concepts in the audio world are simply myth or misunderstood by most.

If I can add something constructive to what @Talisman suggested, I believe Erin had a segment on his youtube about some of Klipsch sensitivity claims, so one must be weary of that if they are interested in that brand (among others):

This is one of the reasons why things like verified 3rd party measurements have extreme value, and is more or less the foundation of this forum because of the sad reality that many manufacturer published specs and claims can be inaccurate or even deceptive. Many here won't buy let alone suggest a speaker (even if they've heard it sounding good in person) unless there are reliable measurements from a trusted source to back it up, preferably CEA2034 "spinorama" measurements (database here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/scores.html) and other measurements like distortion etc. which give the most complete picture of what a product is actually doing with the signal you put into it.

 

[Talisman]

I understand the frenzy of suggestions, the passion of absolute high fidelity and the desire to share what we believe is best for us.
Sometimes, however, I notice that what this community lacks is that bit of mental flexibility that should always be there.
The OP didn't come here to tell us that his tube amp is better or more musical or more analog, or that his wife came from the kitchen to ask him what he had changed and why the hifi now sounded so damn good.
He just asked for some speaker advice.

We must accept that someone can simply fascinate and enjoy having a nice piece of tube amplifier, which lights up in the dim light and which gives that magic and that pleasure that we should remember is the first goal of a hobby.
Can you buy a purifi module and simulate the FR and distortions of a tube? Ok, fine, but it's not the same for an enthusiast. What's wrong with that?

 

[MAB]

I'm not impolite. I am trying to save OP $4800.

Some of the advice here is as if money is meant to be burned.

While I am not the world's leading authority on tubes, someone here is:

What is it about McIntosh?

That takes things a bit too far leaving us open for subjectivist attack. ;) Of course there are modern amps that sound different. The market if full of things like SET tube amps and Pass First Watt stuff that have the distortion types tuned to give them a particular sound. In modern tech we...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, good advice about the fallacy of 'pairing':

Is it possible to EQ warmth into sound via DAC? (speakers: Focal Aria 906)

Im buying a pair of Focal Aria 906 and currently have a RME ADI-2 DAC. I'm researching different amps with prices from $500 to 2000. The more expensive ones giving I guess a more desirable sound. My question is, since I have a really nice DAC, can't I just EQ warmth into the sound so that it...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DanielT]

Buy an active subwoofer.
Make sure that the signal between subwoofer and speakers is split. The subwoofer takes care of everything below 80-100 Hz. Frequencies over that level are taken care of by your tub amp and speakers. A big advantage of such a solution is that the tube amplifier does not have to work with the troublesome area below 80-100 Hz. A difficult area for a tube amp with little power, that is.

You can test yourself here how much power is needed, is appropriate based on the speaker's sensitivity, listening volume, type of music you listen to and listening distance:

How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

Feel free to use this calculator. Add sensitivity to the speaker and then tell which effect you have chosen and why. Weigh in that you want some headroom. http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/REAP.html You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you...

audiosciencereview.com

Consider this with listening distance. From another forum:

"This with distance and sound pressure level in rooms is a very misunderstood area. In a normal listening room, the listener is placed in the so-called the reverberation field, where the room contributions dominate over the direct sound contribution. This means that the listening distance has little significance for the sound pressure level at distances above about two meters.

Exactly how it all turns out depends on the speaker's directional index, the room's equivalent absorption area and to a lesser extent on the distance, but between the thumb and forefinger you can say that the sound pressure level in the listening position from a speaker in a reasonably normal setup roughly corresponds to the sound pressure level at one meter measured in free field . If you e.g. has a speaker with the voltage sensitivity 90 dB, 2.83 V, 1 m i.e. 1 W in 8 ohms, then you have about 100 dB in the listening position for 10 W in 8 ohms. With two speakers, the sound pressure level increases by approx. 3 dB."

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Den feta trevägaren (f18/f25/f32)

Edit:
I tried that setup last summer (class D powerd active subwoofer + tube amp)
when I tested a DIY tube amp that I was commissioned to sell (because whoever builds a tube amp himself in Sweden is not allowed to sell it, but I can). It was a single end tube amp that had been measured up to 6.7W before clipping. It made a big difference if it didn't have to work with the lowest frequencies. It improved the sound. Attaching a picture of that tube amplifier.

Some subwoofers have line out with a built-in HP filter, so you get the lowest frequencies filtered out to the amp that handle the speakers. That feature can be handy to have.

 

[Talisman]

I'm not impolite. I am trying to save OP $4800.

OP, he is not a child to be taught to manage pocket money, he would seem to be an adult who buys what he likes with his earned money, and I repeat, he did not come here to tell us that it sounds better than a purifi, he just asked speaker advice.

 

[MarkS]

We must accept that someone can simply fascinate and enjoy having a nice piece of tube amplifier, which lights up in the dim light and which gives that magic and that pleasure that we should remember is the first goal of a hobby.
Can you buy a purifi module and simulate the FR and distortions of a tube? Ok, fine, but it's not the same for an enthusiast. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with it, as long as the purchaser understands it. At least at first, it was not clear that the OP did understand it. That became clearer with subsequent posts (eg, that this is a second system for the OP, whose other system is a solid-state amp and JBL speakers).

But I will not back down from telling newcomers the truth that tube amps either (1) sound the same as solid state amps, or (2) add distortion (that may be sonicly pleasing on some music with some speakers).

 

[Kartingboy]

I agree it's important to be polite, and admittedly I was tempted to give an answer similar to @MAB although I refrained and tried to hand it over to someone else I happen to completely agree with MAB's post, although if the OP is insistent and absolutely wants to use this amplifier at least he can still be helped with a well-performing speaker suggestion in the limited constraints of what he needs or wants to work with.

@Kartingboy There's lots of information on the forum, and the youtube channel is nice too for a number of key topics if you are interested. The science side of things convincingly demonstrates that characteristics like flat on-axis frequency response, distortion, directivity, room characteristics etc. are 95-99% of the equation when it comes to perceived sound quality, so many that adhere to the science here on ASR will go to great lengths to use transparent electronics (avoiding the harmonic distortion or non-linearities in frequency response caused by tubes with certain loads, for example) and speakers that measure accurately, with emphasis on the loudspeaker end since it is the largest contributor by a long shot and the one worth spending your budget on. It can even be argued that if one understands the science and wishes goodwill unto others it is perhaps a moral imperative to give advice similar to what @MAB did if the goal is helping another user achieve true "high-fidelity" reproduction versus "this sounds amazing to me" reproduction, especially when there is a possibility of a new or inexperienced member believing they have to spend more money on an boutique product only to get measurably worse objective performance. I think new members might take this as a narrow-minded/opinionated view or even aggression, but I see it more of a gesture to get newcomers on the right path and letting them know they are "leaving performance on the table" with certain purchase decisions if they don't already understand. It's also fine if none of this matters to you, but understanding the implications definitely helps one make better consumer decisions on product choices/expectations. Many simple concepts in the audio world are simply myth or misunderstood by most.

If I can add something constructive to what @Talisman suggested, I believe Erin had a segment on his youtube about some of Klipsch sensitivity claims, so one must be weary of that if they are interested in that brand (among others):

This is one of the reasons why things like verified 3rd party measurements have extreme value, and is more or less the foundation of this forum because of the sad reality that many manufacturer published specs and claims can be inaccurate or even deceptive. Many here won't buy let alone suggest a speaker (even if they've heard it sounding good in person) unless there are reliable measurements from a trusted source to back it up, preferably CEA2034 "spinorama" measurements (database here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/scores.html) and other measurements like distortion etc. which give the most complete picture of what a product is actually doing with the signal you put into it.

Hi Jae,
I appreciate your explanation very much.
MAB's replies sounded a little aggressive and it is just his point of view ot the thing. I take the good part from him, no problems at all
I
had several amps in the last years both tubes and solid state. I had also very good speakers (b&w, sonus Faber, JBL L series etc...). On my experience I can firmly say that I find vintage electronics very good sounding and made to play music for real. Most times better than more modern and very expensive models. Imho obviously.
Leben takes this philosophy, it plays music. Well, maybe it won't provide the best detailed sound compared to others hi-end stuff but I like listening to music and not details. Moreover I lacks a tube based system at the moment.
I just wish to know your opinion about some good affordable speakers to pair with it (as you're are doing anyway).
I decided to ask because I found this forum very professional and serious.
You're help is great and I do hope to learn a lot reading the various threads.

 

[Kartingboy]

OP, he is not a child to be taught to manage pocket money, he would seem to be an adult who buys what he likes with his earned money, and I repeat, he did not come here to tell us that it sounds better than a purifi, he just asked speaker advice.

Yes absolutely, I'm nearly 40 years old. Not too old but neither so young. Not more a kid, that's sure.
I would like a good tube based system paired with good speakers. I had a Jadis Orchestra reference amp with kt90 tubes in the past. Excellent amp in my opinion!

 

[witwald]

I ordered a Leben CS300Xs (15W EL84)

The Leben CS-300X(S) is very low powered by modern standards. I'd recommend at least 50W into 8 ohms as a bare minimum, and 100W would be vastly to be preferred.

The Leben CS-300X(S) has distortion levels that are somewhat on the high side: 0.7% at 10W. In comparison, solid state amplifiers will usually do better than 0.05% distortion, and will usually have significantly lower noise floors as well.

at first I will pair it with my cheap old Indiana Line 022 (93dB sensitivity - They should be a quite easy load but I can't find the impedance/phase graph nowhere on the web)

You mention that the load impedance of the loudspeakers that you would consider is an important factor. Are you aware that the Leben CS-300X(S) has a very high output impedance? As a result, it will interact quite considerably with the frequency varying load impedance of typical loudspeakers. The frequency response of the amplifier will be affected.

In their review of the Leben CS-300 integrated amplifier, Stereophile note that the "[output] impedance is sufficiently high to give rise to potentially audible ±1.1dB response variations with a typical loudspeaker, even from the 4 ohm tap".

Take a look at the frequency response of Leben CS-300. As you can see, the Leben is acting a bit like a graphic equalizer with the simulated loudspeaker load. Its equalization will of course vary depending on the loudspeaker that is connected to it. That's not a particularly good characteristic to have in an amplifier, and it means it really can't aspire to meet modern standards of high fidelity.

Saying that an amplifier's philosophy is such that it plays music well, is bypassing the fact that the amplifier should not have a sound of its own. If it does, it's demonstrably failed in its primary purpose: to amplify the input signal without change.

What would you suggest me to search for? I see that is not easy to find good speakers for this little tube amp.

If you are looking for a better high-fidelity sound reproduction experience, then it would be strongly worth considering a solid state integrated amplifier. Most would easily outperform the Leben CS-300X(S). Integrated amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S701 and Rotel RA-1572 MkII are potential options that come to mind. There are many others as well, to suit a wide range of budgets and aesthetic tastes.

Once you get a reasonably powerful solid state amplifier (e.g., 100W RMS into 8 ohms), with a reasonably high damping factor (e.g., >200), then your choice of loudspeakers will be ever so much greater.

 

[MAB]

The Leben CS-300X(S) is very low powered by modern standards. I'd recommend at least 50W into 8 ohms as a bare minimum, and 100W would be vastly to be preferred.

The Leben CS-300X(S) has distortion levels that are somewhat on the high side: 0.7% at 10W. In comparison, solid state amplifiers will usually do better than 0.05% distortion, and will usually have significantly lower noise floors as well.


You mention that the load impedance of the loudspeakers that you would consider is an important factor. Are you aware that the Leben CS-300X(S) has a very high output impedance? As a result, it will interact quite considerably with the frequency varying load impedance of typical loudspeakers. The frequency response of the amplifier will be affected.

In their review of the Leben CS-300 integrated amplifier, Stereophile note that the "[output] impedance is sufficiently high to give rise to potentially audible ±1.1dB response variations with a typical loudspeaker, even from the 4 ohm tap".

Take a look at the frequency response of Leben CS-300. As you can see, the Leben is acting a bit like a graphic equalizer with the simulated loudspeaker load. Its equalization will of course vary depending on the loudspeaker that is connected to it. That's not a particularly good characteristic to have in an amplifier, and it means it really can't aspire to meet modern standards of high fidelity.

Saying that an amplifier's philosophy is such that it plays music well, is bypassing the fact that the amplifier should not have a sound of its own. If it does, it's demonstrably failed in its primary purpose: to amplify the input signal without change.


If you are looking for a better high-fidelity sound reproduction experience, then it would be strongly worth considering a solid state integrated amplifier. Most would easily outperform the Leben CS-300X(S). Integrated amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S701 and Rotel RA-1572 MkII are potential options that come to mind. There are many others as well, to suit a wide range of budgets and aesthetic tastes.

Once you get a reasonably powerful solid state amplifier (e.g., 100W RMS into 8 ohms), with a reasonably high damping factor (e.g., >200), then your choice of loudspeakers will be ever so much greater.

This is very good advice.

 

[mhardy6647]

Hi Talisman,
Klipsch should be great speakers for tubes. At least from what I heard among music lovers.
Often they use to pair tubes with klipsch (more of the time is the heresy model)

They don't sound great, though. BTDT.
15 watts isn't low power -- in my book.
anything with sensitivity in the low 90s (dB SPL @ 1 meter with 1 watt* input) should do well.

SE 2A3 amplification here -- ca. 3 watts per channel, so it's a little trickier.
Vintage Altec (and some vintage JBL) beats Klipsch (old or new) any time with fleapower.

 

[MAB]

If someone wants advice on high-efficiency loudspeakers to drive with their little tube, I don't see the point in proposing something totally different.
He likes what he bought, he just wants advice on speakers.

We don't necessarily have to direct anyone on this site to the things we like, especially if those who ask do so politely and without any controversy, as in this case.

Returning to the thread, for now the pair of klipsch rp8000f are around 1500 euros and should have good sensitivity (the manufacturer declares imaginative values like 98db but in reality they should still be close to 93/94 db) for me they are also very beautiful to be seen with the big copper woofers

I'm not talking about likes vs. dislikes. I actually own tube amps (MC-30 for instance). I like them. I would never recommend them.

 

[witwald]

I had several amps in the last years both tubes and solid state. I had also very good speakers (B&W, Sonus Faber, JBL L series etc...). On my experience I can firmly say that I find vintage electronics very good sounding and made to play music for real. Most times better than more modern and very expensive models.

If one likes to use vintage-style electronics, while wanting to achieve a good sound, then this can be a very limiting situation to be in. From the short list of speakers that was provided above (how many more after the etc.?), and the "several amps" that were also referred to, there seems to be an audiophile quest of sorts going on. In any case, tube amplifiers have a bit of a reputation for adding euphonic colorations, making the listener think that they sound "better", when in fact they are worse because they have added something that isn't there in the first place.

Objectively speaking, the search for "good sound" won't be helped by using a tube amplifier, which introduces its own vagaries into the listening equation, all of which serve to detract from a high-fidelity music reproduction experience. A tube amplifier will be imprinting its own sonic signature on what could be very good speakers. It is likely to cause a listener to prefer one speaker over another, based purely on the distorting effects of the amplifier itself, as the modifications to the loudspeaker's frequency response caused by variations in the loudspeaker's impedance are themselves distortion of a high degree.

It is helpful to recognize that a tube amplifier will never allow you to hear the true as-designed characteristics of a loudspeaker (with a varying impedance) connected to it (albeit those will be unavoidably modified by the acoustics of the listening room). Once a modern solid state amplifier is selected, its performance will be loudspeaker independent. It is then possible to go about partnering that amplifier with a loudspeaker of your choice, without having to worry about the potential synergistic and/or detrimental amplifier–loudspeaker interactions.

 

[witwald]

....but our OP came here looking for advice on speakers, not to debate electronics. Please ... let's help him if we can.

I fully take your point, which is a good one. However, it needs to be kept in mind that there is likely to be a very significant amplifier–loudspeaker interaction process going on with the selected amplifier, let alone the loudspeaker–room interaction one. The latter is enough to make a suggestion for any particular loudspeaker fraught with difficulty. Add the former into the mix and the result is a quite foggy situation. The various posts have tried to reflect on this situation in order to aid the OP in his quest for good sound.

 

[mhardy6647]

Hi Jim
actually I considered it lately
I never tried to build speakes but in my case it's a good option I should consider seriously.

There are interesting kit options, worldwide.
For example, Foster (Fostex) has had several interesting kits in the form of 'flat packs' (i.e., no woodworking skill required), although many of the most interesting ones may now be discontinued.

Again, focus on loudspeakers with good sensitivity (90+ dB) and benign impedance curves. Higher nominal impedance (8 or 16 ohm) loudspeakers are generally better, even if the output transformers on the Leben have 4 ohm taps (which I would assume they do).

 

[MarkS]

Gentlemen! Please have a little respect!

Our new member is not a person snowed by the scam artists who push B.S. onto newcomers. Instead, he has said ....

The OP did not reveal the depth of his experience in his original post, and that's when he got entirely appropriate and necessary pushback.

 

[MattHooper]

It is helpful to recognize that a tube amplifier will never allow you to hear the true as-designed characteristics of a loudspeaker (with a varying impedance) connected to it (albeit those will be unavoidably modified by the acoustics of the listening room)

A caveat there is that loudspeakers can be designed to be more amplifier agnostic (e.g. easy load for tubes so you won't necessarily get that frequency variation), and tube amps can be designed to sound neutral.

But those caveats aside: I generally agree with you. That's why, even though I use tube amps at home and often listen to vinyl, whenever I audition speakers I prefer they be driven by a decent solid state amp, and a digital source for music. That way I can better ascertain if what I'm hearing is a characteristic of the speaker, vs whatever vagaries of coloration may come from the amps or vinyl set up.

If I want to add some more sauce to my taste, I can do that at home with vinyl/tubes, but first I want an understanding of the capability/character of the speaker itself.