Does an analog amplifier affect the DAC signal?

[sniegs]

Hello audiophiles!

The question is, how much does the amp affect the DAC signal.
I have an amplifier Denon PMA-600NE to which I want to add a few classes higher DAC, but I don't want the Denon to affect the DAC signal. If I enable the Denon in Analog mode (there is a button that bypasses the digital processing) will it affect the signal (because I've heard that the output gain affects the sound quality more than the input gain)?

To what extent is it and does it make sense to add a few classes more expensive DAC?

 

[Cote Dazur]

a few classes more expensive DAC

a few classes higher DAC

From your questions, I would suggest, do not do anything before you spend time educating yourself on the subject of audio here on ASR. It will save you money and get you to make wiser choices.
One additional advice, do not start a post here with: hello audiophiles, , starting a post with an insult is not a great strategy (you will get the joke when you spend time in this amazing forum)

 

[DVDdoug]

Sorry but that's confusing...

What's wrong with the built-in DAC? (Probably nothing.)

but I don't want the Denon to affect the DAC signal.

Technically, anything "active" in the analog path will degrade the signal. But that doesn't mean the degradation is audible. If you hear any kind defect it will be noise. Distortion and frequency response are almost always better than human hearing (unless you over-drive the amp into distortion). There will also be noise from the analog section of the DAC but it's unlikely to be audible.

If you are hearing noise (background hum or hiss) it's probably coming from the analog part of the amplifier or from an analog source plugged-into the amp (or noise embedded in the digital recording).

(there is a button that bypasses the digital processing) will it affect the signal (because I've heard that the output gain affects the sound quality more than the input gain)?

The additional analog-to-digital-to-analog conversion can theoretically degrade the signal and if you aren't using the digital processing it's theoretically best to bypass it, but it's likely audibly transparent (assuming no "processing"). If you want to boost the bass or something, then of course the digital processing makes it "better".

I doubt you can separate "input gain" from "output gain". I'm not even sure what that means. There are inputs and outputs with gain or attenuation somewhere in-between. Most of the time you are attenuating rather than amplifying but the signal usually still may goes-through the gain stage electronics, optionally attenuated at the input of the gain stage.

A different DAC or amplifier isn't the place to start improving your sound quality. Speakers/headphones make the biggest difference. EQ can also make a big difference.

 

[tomtoo]

So everything that a dac puts out, gets amplified by the amplifier. Amps are not perfect. So they alter the signal that they get from the dac.
Easy answer.
How much do they alter the signal compared to speakers or the room?
Minimal.
Easy answer.

 

[sniegs]

Clear!
I learned a lot from each commenter.

The situation is that my amplifier with bookshelf speakers at extremely low volume with Dali Spektor 1 or Polk Audio Signature S15 does not sound like everyone here writes that you can separate the instruments in the room.

They sound more like under a pillow, however, it must be admitted that if you turn on both speakers, at least the stereo effect created by the upper sound is produced. Only at higher volumes does the dynamics show. There is vocals but that's it. The average sound is bad.

Tomorrow I will receive the Heko Aurora, but I don't know if it will help me.

So what should I do to be able to separate those instruments?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Hi @sniegs.... welcome aboard. I may be a bit cheeky welcoming you since I too am a relative newcomer here.

Regarding the audiophile term, some people like me think it is a neutral term that is simply an easy way to refer to people interested in audio playback. Others think that it is a great insult and it means that they have been duped by the consumer audio industry into buying expensive equipment and accessories that often have little or no positive effect.

Regarding your original question. The vast majority on this forum feel that all properly functioning amplifiers, preamplifiers (line stages), and DACs have no signature sound of their own. Using this logic, you likely will not "improve" your system's performance by upgrading the DAC. I personally have shifted my position from "cheap or older DACs don't sound as good as today's better DACs" to the position of uncertainty. I will be performing my own controlled blind tests to see if I can reliably tell the difference between DACs.

That is a long way of saying, you probably don't need to change your equipment if the amplifier is powerful enough for your speakers and listening level.

 

[tomtoo]

So maybe you desrcibe your listening situation a little bit more first ? Nor the dac or amp will change instrument seperation that much.

 

[jsilvela]

I got the same Denon amp for my mother.
The DAC in it is quite good. Not sure it's the problem with imaging.
If you want to discard that hypothesis, you could connect some gear via RCA cables.
The "Analog" mode in that amp is to turn of the DAC and conserve power -> use it fully for amplification. It does not mess with external signal.

But the imaging problem you're describing seems more about speaker placement and symmetry/matching.
I have not experienced the crystal clear separation of imaging some describe, but it's not difficult to get clear directional differences.
Luck!

 

[Mr. Widget]

So what should I do to be able to separate those instruments?

Speaker position and room treatment are likely your best approach.

An overly bright (reflective) room will confuse the image. A very dead room (a room with lots of sound absorption) will sound smaller and focus the sound between the speakers. A proper balance will give you the best results. Do some reading on listening room design and look at what other members here and elsewhere have done.

 

[jsilvela]

Just thought of something to clarify. As I mentioned, the "analog" mode there is to turn off the DAC and conserve electricity.
In the RCA inputs, the DAC does not participate at all, it's there for the optical / SPDIF inputs only.
Any CD/DVD/Discman/whatever with RCA outputs will bypass the amp's DAC.
Easy way to discard hypothesis

 

[Mr. Widget]

So maybe you desrcibe your listening situation a little bit more first ? Nor the dac or amp will change instrument seperation that much.

But the imaging problem you're describing seems more about speaker placement and symmetry/matching.
I have not experienced the crystal clear separation of imaging some describe, but it's not difficult to get clear directional differences.
Luck!

Exactly.

 

[Killingbeans]

The question is, how much does the amp affect the DAC signal.

Root sum squared. Meaning the "bad" link in the chain will always dominate.

 

[Killingbeans]

So what should I do to be able to separate those instruments?

Don't try to fix it with a DAC, that's for sure. Speakers + room acoustics is the absolute #1 culprit.

 

[sniegs]

I liked the idea about blind tests, because I have done them myself. Close your eyes and have someone beep your phone above your head or behind you or in front of you and you won't know where the sound is coming from. There are also blind tests on speakers and only people from recording studios are able to tell the difference between a cheap speaker and a good speaker, but not everyone else.

About the room and listening position. I won't change anything. And in general I like partial echo.
I have white bookshelf speakers on the shelf with the books and will stay that way. I am not a big analyst, just a listener. I'm just thinking about what else I can do for good sound.

What happens with Bluetooth, if the amplifier receives sound with Bluetooth, then the DAC of the amplifier also works, as far as I understand? At least Analog mode turns it off. My system: PC with foobar or spotify > mblu dac > amazon basic rca > Denon > Speakers (sub is also there but not powered yet).

 

[tomtoo]

Sry,
" ...have white bookshelf speakers on the shelf with the books and will stay that way. I am not a big analyst, just a listener. I'm just thinking about what else I can do for good sound...."

get the best dac and amp you can get for money. Wont change much, but maybe it makes you happy?

Is it ignorance or stup..., i dont know?

People should be happy.

 

[sniegs]

Sry,
" ...have white bookshelf speakers on the shelf with the books and will stay that way. I am not a big analyst, just a listener. I'm just thinking about what else I can do for good sound...."

get the best dac and amp you can get for money. Wont change much, but maybe it makes you happy?

Is it ignorance or stup..., i dont know?

People should be happy.

The speakers are already in their box (they are not openbox) and I am not going to create a room around them yet. According to you, I could just as well run them from the phone, but that recipe would hardly be balanced.

 

[jsilvela]

What happens with Bluetooth, if the amplifier receives sound with Bluetooth, then the DAC of the amplifier also works, as far as I understand? At least Analog mode turns it off. My system: PC with foobar or spotify > mblu dac > amazon basic rca > Denon > Speakers (sub is also there but not powered yet).

No, not at all. The DAC in the amp will not participate. It receives electricity because it's "on". The analog mode is to turn that off.
The DAC in the amp would only participate if the mblu DAC were connecting to the Denon via optical or SPDIF.

I have white bookshelf speakers on the shelf with the books and will stay that way.

That there is your main problem, not your electronics.

 

[tomtoo]

Sry,
" ...have white bookshelf speakers on the shelf with the books and will stay that way. I am not a big analyst, just a listener. I'm just thinking about what else I can do for good sound...."

get the best dac and amp you can get for money. Wont change much, but maybe it makes you happy?

Is it ignorance or stup..., i dont know?

People should be happy.

I did read a lot on asr but to descripe a listening situation starting with "my speakers are white and on a shelf.."
is at least great.

The bad part:
To hear instrument seperation a bookshelf is a realy bad place.
The good part:
The color of the speaker has not a big influence.

 

[Killingbeans]

According to you, I could just as well run them from the phone, but that recipe would hardly be balanced.

Not sure what you mean by 'balanced'?

If your speakers are fighting their placement in way that makes them sound bad, using your phone as a source will not do anything neither good nor bad to change that situation.

 

[Chrispy]

Don't buy another dac, the one you have is fine. It's your speakers and your placement of them most likely where you can make an actual improvement. Does that amp have a loudness contour to help out at lower volume?