Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[restorer-john]

I don't see where 1kHz to clipping is going to change. It's repeatable!

1kHz SINAD or 1kHz clipping is the equivalent of the Big Mac. Always the same, quick, easy and predictable. Takeaway test results that leave a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, because you didn't really characterize or taste what a real 'burger' is capable of.

But people keep lining up for Big Macs. Not me, haven't been to a McDonalds in many decades.

 

[antcollinet]

1kHz SINAD or 1kHz clipping is the equivalent of the Big Mac. Always the same, quick, easy and predictable. Takeaway test results that leave a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, because you didn't really characterize or taste what a real 'burger' is capable of.

But people keep lining up for Big Macs. Not me, haven't been to a McDonalds in many decades.

But I love my Big Macs.

I think it is in the mastering.

 

[amirm]

Question: has some audio equipment matched or even surpassed the noise performance of the APx555 and how that affects our noise measurements and SINAD measurements? I have read @JohnYang1997 saying in a few posts that some devices measure better than the AP, and solutions such as the E1DA Cosmos APU must be used to calculate the actual performance of these DUTs, the APx555's documentation supports this. If so, how do these limitations affect the measurements we post here? @amirm or anybody else who could chime in this and help me understand this.

On distortion front, we are able to measure many dBs below threshold of hearing because of use of FFT gain (which removes noise as a factor).

For noise, we measure the sum of noise in the AP itself+device being tested. Current state of the art devices produce less noise than AP itself. And as such, we are being limited to about 123 dB SINAD.

You could say you want a less noisy analyzer than AP then. My take would be that it is not a high priority target since we have already reached a target that is great (123 dB). So I am not too worried about it. See how I limit linearity test to -120 dB even though we could go much lower than that.

This said, I do hope AP is working on lower noise analyzers for no reason other than keeping up with state of the art.

 

[KeithPhantom]

On distortion front, we are able to measure many dBs below threshold of hearing because of use of FFT gain (which removes noise as a factor).

For noise, we measure the sum of noise in the AP itself+device being tested. Current state of the art devices produce less noise than AP itself. And as such, we are being limited to about 123 dB SINAD.

You could say you want a less noisy analyzer than AP then. My take would be that it is not a high priority target since we have already reached a target that is great (123 dB). So I am not too worried about it. See how I limit linearity test to -120 dB even though we could go much lower than that.

This said, I do hope AP is working on lower noise analyzers for no reason other than keeping up with state of the art.

This is the answer I was looking for, thanks!

 

[OWC]

You insensitive clod! I have electrostatic speakers. Not close to any two way or three way box speaker.

I am sorry, but standards are for majorities.
Electrostatics are also a little nicer as a load btw

 

[Mart68]

1kHz SINAD or 1kHz clipping is the equivalent of the Big Mac. Always the same, quick, easy and predictable. Takeaway test results that leave a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, because you didn't really characterize or taste what a real 'burger' is capable of.

But people keep lining up for Big Macs. Not me, haven't been to a McDonalds in many decades.

I had one the other day but first time in years. You can't get a proper burger in this country so that might explain why they are still popular. No competition.

I agree that the issue of amplifier performance into real load is a genuine problem for the reviews that needs addressing somehow. My 67 watt NAD and 70 watt Krell don't perform the same with my speakers despite SINAD being similar (think the NAD is actually slightly higher SINAD but only the NAD has been measured here).

 

[MattHooper]

This is just false in every way. I guess if you listen to rock where they use 30db sinad speakers at 5000% volume in clubs sure. But if you actually listen to things like classical and jazz music in person, then you definitely won't want to listen to garbage vinyl. You definitely won't want distortion in your music, because it will sound like crap.

This is a classic "speak for yourself" moment. ;-)

I listen to tons of acoustic based music on vinyl (Jazz/Jazzy, Orchestral) and I find it sounds fantastic.

I feel as if alot of the people who think that distortion is good is only for nostalgia purposes from when they are young and music quality was shit (in terms of acoustics) and they went out and heard some bands play over speakers in live places or even without speakers (unlikely) and had to deal with the background noise of everyone else..

Its fine to reminisce of the past, but to talk about buying a dac that is worse because you believe some hype about it sounding "more analog"... Well that is your own issue to wrestle with.

It's certainly true that some vinyl enthusiasts cite a nostalgia for the format, and even for the "crackly sound of old."

But plenty of others, like myself, really love the sound of vinyl in terms of it's perceived sound qualities. I'm listening to records on a far better turntable/cartridge/sound system than I did when growing up and the sound is not "nostalgic" per se - I'd never heard records sound like this growing up!
So when I put on a well produced record I'm not thinking "ah the good old days" but rather "holy hell this sounds spectacular!" It feels fresh again.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Jimster480]

This is a classic "speak for yourself" moment. ;-)

I listen to tons of acoustic based music on vinyl (Jazz/Jazzy, Orchestral) and I find it sounds fantastic.



It's certainly true that some vinyl enthusiasts cite a nostalgia for the format, and even for the "crackly sound of old."

But plenty of others, like myself, really love the sound of vinyl in terms of it's perceived sound qualities. I'm listening to records on a far better turntable/cartridge/sound system than I did when growing up and the sound is not "nostalgic" per se - I'd never heard records sound like this growing up!
So when I put on a well produced record I'm not thinking "ah the good old days" but rather "holy hell this sounds spectacular!" It feels fresh again.

YMMV, of course.

I guess this is one way to put it. However the performance of vinyl just isn't up to snuff with better more modern formats.
Which is why I have the feelings that i do.
Just imagine after you finish all the vinyls that sound fantastic you can listen to the digitally remastered ones which are even better. Or listen to more modern recordings which are done properly (many aren't unfortunately). When you find truly masterful modern recordings those will really blow your mind..
There are a few threads in the forum here which have people suggesting masterfully recorded albums and tracks.

 

[MattHooper]

I guess this is one way to put it. However the performance of vinyl just isn't up to snuff with better more modern formats.
Which is why I have the feelings that i do.
Just imagine after you finish all the vinyls that sound fantastic you can listen to the digitally remastered ones which are even better. Or listen to more modern recordings which are done properly (many aren't unfortunately). When you find truly masterful modern recordings those will really blow your mind..
There are a few threads in the forum here which have people suggesting masterfully recorded albums and tracks.

I understand your perspective.

Mine is based on my own comparisons. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with good digital sound. I'm working in digital high quality sound all day long. And I stream my ripped lossless CDs and Tidal to my Benchmark DAC2L when listening to digital music on my system. So I'm essentially comparing digital vs my vinyl constantly. That's where my impressions come from. Excellent sounding LPs don't just come from the past - I have many gorgeous sounding newly minted LPs of new music too. Even when I have the digital version I still often end up preferring the vinyl version. For instance I have the vinyl 45 of a Disclosure single that came out last year (they have great sound!). I've compared it to the digital version and while the digital sounds tremendous, I slightly prefer the vinyl because, at least on my system, it sounds a bit more "solid" and palpable. All the little flourishes - the hand claps, drum machines, little wood block/rim hits, keyboard stuff sound a bit more like physical instruments popping in and out of the recorded space. And that turns my crank . I'm willing to forgive some of vinyl's other sins to enjoy it.

 

[Jimster480]

I understand your perspective.

Mine is based on my own comparisons. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with good digital sound. I'm working in digital high quality sound all day long. And I stream my ripped lossless CDs and Tidal to my Benchmark DAC2L when listening to digital music on my system. So I'm essentially comparing digital vs my vinyl constantly. That's where my impressions come from. Excellent sounding LPs don't just come from the past - I have many gorgeous sounding newly minted LPs of new music too. Even when I have the digital version I still often end up preferring the vinyl version. For instance I have the vinyl 45 of a Disclosure single that came out last year (they have great sound!). I've compared it to the digital version and while the digital sounds tremendous, I slightly prefer the vinyl because, at least on my system, it sounds a bit more "solid" and palpable. All the little flourishes - the hand claps, drum machines, little wood block/rim hits, keyboard stuff sound a bit more like physical instruments popping in and out of the recorded space. And that turns my crank . I'm willing to forgive some of vinyl's other sins to enjoy it.

As long as you understand why you enjoy it. Especially since new music is always recorded digital and then converted to vinyl. There is only one studio in the world currently that records straight to vinyl today and it is in Tennessee.

 

[MattHooper]

As long as you understand why you enjoy it. Especially since new music is always recorded digital and then converted to vinyl. There is only one studio in the world currently that records straight to vinyl today and it is in Tennessee.

Yup. I don't really care if the master was analog or digital. Whether we are talking about CDs or LPs, the biggest influence is the quality of the master, not the medium per se.

And as I've said, when a record comes from a digital source, it still acquires a slightly different "vinyl" sound vs the straight digital version, so I can prefer that.

 

[Jimster480]

Yup. I don't really care if the master was analog or digital. Whether we are talking about CDs or LPs, the biggest influence is the quality of the master, not the medium per se.

And as I've said, when a record comes from a digital source, it still acquires a slightly different "vinyl" sound vs the straight digital version, so I can prefer that.

Like I said as long as you know why you like it.

 

[Ja1man]

aLl DaCs SoUnD tHe SaMe

 

[DonR]

aLl DaCs SoUnD tHe SaMe

If any differences exist between these DACs, they will be buried in the phone's microphone and compressed youtube audio. Did he even level-match the DACs with a DMM?

 

[Ja1man]

If any differences exist between these DACs, they will be buried in the phone's microphone and compressed youtube audio. Did he even level-match the DACs with a DMM?

Doesn't matter, you can hear the difference clearly, regardless of the limitations. The presentation is literally different.

 

[Jimster480]

aLl DaCs SoUnD tHe SaMe

this is a perfect example of what a retard thinks who cannot put together any coherent statements. The guy who made this video says that one is more "present, holographic, vivid, airy, transparent" like just come up with words to talk about something because you really know nothing. When he does the side by side, there is basically 0 difference at all.... The difference is literally made up by him saying that there is one. Also it is likely that one of these expensive audiophool POS DAC's has like 25db SINAD because it is made for morons who make videos like these, not people who are interested in quality audio.

 

[DonR]

Doesn't matter, you can hear the difference clearly, regardless of the limitations. The presentation is literally different.

Not to me. Sounded the same. Some people could pick up a mismatched level as an "improvement". He also moved the phone around between DACs, that alone disqualifies the whole endeavour.

 

[Jimster480]

Not to me. Sounded the same. Some people could pick up a mismatched level as an "improvement". He also moved the phone around between DACs, that alone disqualifies the whole endeavour.

He claims its in the same spot. On the comparison videos I struggled to hear a difference but it seemed like the second one was a bit better... regardless of such neither of these products is even measured here so they could be just some garbage audiophool equipment with garbage design.

 

[DonR]

He claims its in the same spot. On the comparison videos I struggled to hear a difference but it seemed like the second one was a bit better... regardless of such neither of these products is even measured here so they could be just some garbage audiophool equipment with garbage design.

Probably a level difference then.

 

[Jimster480]

Probably a level difference then.

or it could be that one is just not competent at all... who really knows... he is claiming level matching too but how would he know if he didn't check voltages?