ATC speakers / Monitors

[YSC]

You cannot just swap a soffit mounted speaker for another, the soffit is built to exact dimensions.

I have travelled to various studios to hear PMC and ATC installs. Certainly not all were good. Genelec mains, augspurger and 420 can be found locally. 420 can be soffit mounted with a Kit from neumann to remove the Amp pack yes. I also tried 8351, Dutch, Meyer Amie, Pulsar and Focal Trio. All in a very good room, but even the best rooms are not free of boundary properties that will affect freestanding speaker’s performance. These properties can be largely removed in a good soffit mount solution.

The ATC mids and HF aligned best with my preferences, and measured great in good rooms and not very good in lesser rooms. So no doubt; as a freestanding speaker alot of the other brands had better performance (especially in the lowmids and lows). But ultimately did not compete with a good soffit mounted ATC system. These are all just my personal experiences, so take that for what it is

As said before, I don’t view any of the speakers as perfect, I see it as different compromises for the best fit, for a certain room design philosophy. There are lots of great speakers, none of them will be the perfect match for all rooms and use cases.

Maybe then it's really the second/third language barrier caused the arguement bewteen us at least then. The red portion is what I always said, ATC (excluding the mains in arguement/discussion for a bit first), while is good and not say really not even flat on axis like recent B&W and some PMC with weird measurements do, isn't as good/ SOTA in design in the free standing department. still good if cost no object and with some treatment/in the MLP well setup, but not that competitive in terms of best.

For blue part, yea, your personal preference is what matters to your own choice afterall, it's your working environment, but to me, who don't work or own a studio and even if got rich won't want one, purely discussing technically, the ATC don't seem to be the best brand of choice in all the published measurements, and for visiting the various installs I believe the room variationo dictates what you hear, and maybe ending up be the choice, also vice versa, I remember early in the thread your room shows some HF roll off due to supposed over damping in the early room building stage, could be one of the reasons why you find your ATC solution less fatigue than the Genelec setup you visited, maybe in final version of your room it didn't roll off post 10khz or maybe it's still there, with reduced extent or the same. I do think that could explain the HF fatigue part in long term, ppl do get annoyed by really HF sound especially noise if it's in the mix, which is why NOS dacs still have a great market as ppl feel that the NOS HF roll off sounds more polite and not harsh. But those are personal preference, and not really what the objective debate/discussion of what is translating the recorded materials more faithfully, which, IMHO, the one reveals the harsh fatigue flaws factually should be preferred as that makes one notice and can target the actual flaw which is there.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Maybe then it's really the second/third language barrier caused the arguement bewteen us at least then. The red portion is what I always said, ATC (excluding the mains in arguement/discussion for a bit first), while is good and not say really not even flat on axis like recent B&W and some PMC with weird measurements do, isn't as good/ SOTA in design in the free standing department. still good if cost no object and with some treatment/in the MLP well setup, but not that competitive in terms of best.

For blue part, yea, your personal preference is what matters to your own choice afterall, it's your working environment, but to me, who don't work or own a studio and even if got rich won't want one, purely discussing technically, the ATC don't seem to be the best brand of choice in all the published measurements, and for visiting the various installs I believe the room variationo dictates what you hear, and maybe ending up be the choice, also vice versa, I remember early in the thread your room shows some HF roll off due to supposed over damping in the early room building stage, could be one of the reasons why you find your ATC solution less fatigue than the Genelec setup you visited, maybe in final version of your room it didn't roll off post 10khz or maybe it's still there, with reduced extent or the same. I do think that could explain the HF fatigue part in long term, ppl do get annoyed by really HF sound especially noise if it's in the mix, which is why NOS dacs still have a great market as ppl feel that the NOS HF roll off sounds more polite and not harsh. But those are personal preference, and not really what the objective debate/discussion of what is translating the recorded materials more faithfully, which, IMHO, the one reveals the harsh fatigue flaws factually should be preferred as that makes one notice and can target the actual flaw which is there.

Remember as a lot here have stated, the room mostly dictates what we hear up to around 300hz, then the direct sound takes over. So judging the Mid and HF is certainly possible in varying rooms. The low end response is more difficult, but overall the soffit mounted rooms where just substantially more even.

The genelecs are not really tilted towards the HF I think, I can’t tell you exactly what is “wrong” for me. It sounds resonant to my ears.

 

[thewas]

My despised opinion is shared by well respected opinions, for example here

I agree that there is no consensus at the listener/end-user end, it is a matter of preference, but in the studio I am not so sure...


Ultimately using the side walls is distorting the signal that is being transduced by the speakers.

It is not at all a despised opinion but also not an agreed consensus as I got the impression from your previous post.
So your opinion is that optimal stereo listening is in an anechoic chamber as with your above argumentation any reflection is "distorting the signal that is being transduced by the speakers"?

 

[thewas]

Because I looked for speakers designed for soffit mounting, as it offers important and concise acoustic advantages that no cardioid constant directivity or coaxial design can achieve freestanding.

Neumann does not have a design I would consider, and don’t have headroom and sound I want. They are on the warm and polite end of the spectrum to my ears. Genelec main monitor models could have been a contender at a slightly higher price, but their HF presentation is not really workable for me, I find it exhausting over an extended period.

That's your personal taste/bias though and taste cannot be discussed, the only thing that can be discussed is objective facts.

 

[tuga]

It is not at all a despised opinion but also not an agreed consensus as I got the impression from your previous post.
So your opinion is that optimal stereo listening is in an anechoic chamber as with your above argumentation any reflection is "distorting the signal that is being transduced by the speakers"?

No, I think that for domestic playback people should do what sounds best to them.
The RFZ design makes sense theoretically for music production (but I have no hands-on experience, other than a couple of brief times in a broadcasting booth).

 

[dfuller]

Re: studio design, generally it makes a lot more sense to use absorption at as many first reflection points as possible (i.e., everything other than the floor) than to use diffusion, except in very large control rooms where there is worry about a slap off a rear wall or something. Heavily attenuating first reflections is a good idea even with controlled dispersion speakers - you want to take the room to a point where the reflections are not the dominant source.

As such, the PIR that Klippel generates is not particularly relevant to studio control rooms where reflections are heavily attenuated.

Re: ATCs, they're generally easy to mix on, so long as you have a sub. They generally behave themselves well enough and are low distortion designs. I find mixing on Genelecs considerably more difficult, the bass doesn't sound right.

 

[thewas]

No, I think that for domestic playback people should do what sounds best to them.

Fully agree there, for studios though I would like to see a standardisation as its the only way to get out of audio's circle of confusion.

 

[Northward]

No, we can see b&w speakers in studio designed by Northward : Amsterdam mastering.

Northward say a room must designed around the speakers. My evil spirit would translate to: I make room to correct the faults of the loudspeakers that I use and whose design I know will not change.
The design change would force me to review my process

No, that's not at all what happened. You cannot correct a speaker with the room design. That's such a weird construct to believe that. The room will only sound as good as the speakers.

I stopped working with B&W, GENELEC, PMC etc because they all have (sometimes major) issues that, aiming at providing the best possible environment for my clients was I not ready to deal with anymore. I learned about the issues working with them. Well controlled environments really reveal these things. Sometimes manufacturers were not aware of the issues and most we're not helpful at all. Some were well aware but for marketing reasons or other reasons (money) decided to turn a blind eye on the issues.

Free standing are also out of the equation altogether as they can never perform as well as in-wall. We tried hard, it's not happening.

ATC are the only loudspeakers that passed all the quality requirements easily. The ATC rooms were also the ones clients always preferred. So did I and by no small margin.

So why even bother using something else? Almost all our clients visit rooms we designed prior to signing contracts. Loudspeakers aren't a subject of conversation after that. It's ATC.

It's very annoying to read users say they are obsolete. They are at the very top of the food chain and produce the finest drivers you can get. I consulted for a bunch of loudspeakers manufacturers over the years, mainly designing their test and anechoic rooms, and I am currently consulting for two world class manufacturers.

Guess who they all look up to? ATC.

Hope you're working on those few questions I asked you btw?

 

[thewas]

I stopped working with B&W, GENELEC, PMC etc because they all have (sometimes major) issues that, aiming at providing the best possible environment for my clients was I not ready to deal with anymore.

I would like to hear that the issues of the Genelecs are.

 

[Ilkless]

I would like to hear that the issues of the Genelecs are.

That they didn't need ATC's band-aids and Northward wasn't ready to accept that.

 

[Northward]

I am sorry to say that your expectations are misplaced, @Purité Audio is an audio dealer and there are no technical expertise or knowledge requirements for dealers.

So how are we supposed to have a "science based " conversation when the users requesting / demanding said data and throwing the word science left and right can't read it accurately, and can't answer basic questions that they should be able to answer in a heart beat if they had the knowledge required to read said data?

But then the same users are fine with claiming others are ignorant, this or that company designs pre-historical drivers. These are not healthy or reasonable conversations - at all.

These conversations are not about science, they're about winning an internet argument. The subject is secondary. They could be about cameras or politics.

I would like to hear that the issues of the Genelecs are.

Very fatiguing, high distortion levels for a pro monitor. Amp settings creating weird phase issues. Port noises. Too high discrepancies between drivers response from one unit to another making L/R drivers calibration very difficult.

 

[thewas]

Very fatiguing, high distortion levels for a pro monitor. Amp settings creating weird phase issues. Port noises. Too high discrepancies between drivers response from one unit to another making L/R drivers calibration very difficult.

Do you have measurements to show those problems?
All high quality 3rd party measurements I have seen like from S&R, ASR, EAC don't show any of those.

 

[Blockader]

You cannot just swap a soffit mounted speaker for another, the soffit is built to exact dimensions.

I have travelled to various studios to hear PMC and ATC installs. Certainly not all were good. Genelec mains, augspurger and 420 can be found locally. 420 can be soffit mounted with a Kit from neumann to remove the Amp pack yes. I also tried 8351, Dutch, Meyer Amie, Pulsar and Focal Trio. All in a very good room, but even the best rooms are not free of boundary properties that will affect freestanding speaker’s performance. These properties can be largely removed in a good soffit mount solution.

The ATC mids and HF aligned best with my preferences, and measured great in good rooms and not very good in lesser rooms. So no doubt; as a freestanding speaker alot of the other brands had better performance (especially in the lowmids and lows). But ultimately did not compete with a good soffit mounted ATC system. These are all just my personal experiences, so take that for what it is

As said before, I don’t view any of the speakers as perfect, I see it as different compromises for the best fit, for a certain room design philosophy. There are lots of great speakers, none of them will be the perfect match for all rooms and use cases.

this isn't the best forum to talk about your preferences. If you have any evidence based claims about why ATC is better than Genelec or Neumann, let us know. I have nothing against ATC, they just have to improve sound power response of their speakers, they are lagging behind in that front. ATCs have incredible build quality, great drivers, good customer service. It is not late for ATC to make a comeback.

 

[Ilkless]

incredible build quality, great drivers

I question this - unnecessarily large drivers with unnecessarily large c2c spacing using primitive materials and primitive construction don't quite fit the bill. If we talk power handling, BMS, B&C, 18Sound make much more ventilated drivers that are as smooth/flat in the right box. And in the home audio space, any Scanspeak above a Revelator, SB Satori, Purifi and Accuton are the benchmark for build and/or driver performance.

 

[Northward]

Do you have measurements to show those problems?
All high quality 3rd party measurements I have seen like from S&R, ASR, EAC don't show any of those.

I do yes, in my archives. I believe 1034, 1037 and 1038. From ca. 2010. I'm 10000kms from the office now on a work trip but will dig those out. A studio I did with GENELEC 1037 in the late 00s' is 10min away from my office so I can also drop there for a measurement with my current app.

 

[dfuller]

Very fatiguing, high distortion levels for a pro monitor. Amp settings creating weird phase issues. Port noises. Too high discrepancies between drivers response from one unit to another making L/R drivers calibration very difficult.

Interesting! I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed some rather odd port behavior on some Genelecs...

 

[thewas]

I do yes, in my archives. I believe 1034, 1037 and 1038. From ca. 2010. I'm 10000kms from the office now on a work trip but will dig those out. A studio I did with GENELEC 1037 in the late 00s' is 10min away from my office so I can also drop there for a measurement with my current app.

Thank you, that would be interesting, no hurry or stress. Maybe it should be added also though for people who don't know about the Genelec model history that those 3 are all old models who cannot really be compared to their current successors.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

this isn't the best forum to talk about your preferences. If you have any evidence based claims about why ATC is better than Genelec or Neumann, let us know. I have nothing against ATC, they just have to improve sound power response of their speakers, they are lagging behind in that front. ATCs have incredible build quality, great drivers, good customer service. It is not late for ATC to make a comeback.

Please don’t make accusations, based on answers to another users questions. I was asked about choice, and gave an explanation. Read the thread if you want to quote.

 

[Blockader]

Interesting! I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed some rather odd port behavior on some Genelecs...

Soft dome tweeters(which atc have) behave like ring radiator drivers in high frequencies hence their sound power drops rapidly in high frequencies. Soft domes start beaming above 8khz or so, their directivity becomes narrower as the frequency goes higher. What does that mean? ATCs form recessed high frequency reflections inside rooms. ATCs can mask problems in recordings as a playback device better than Genelecs thanks to that. (a reminder, our hearing fuses direct sound to early reflections even from very close listening distances. We can perceive a flat on axis response speakers tonality with recessed highs in a typical room) Genelecs are not distorted in high frequencies, they form close to ideal, very strong HF reflections compared to ATCs and they butcher all the bad recordings which were mixed on inferior gear. What these guys hear as distortion is simply unattenuated highs unlike ATCs have. Genelecs always sound more balanced than ATCs with pink noise, which is the best way to judge a speakers tonal balance.

it is no mystery for those who can read measutmrements that speakers like genelec can sound harsh, fatiguing in high frequencies with bad recordings. They are accurste enough to show that. Accuracy is something that can be modelled mathematically, our ears are not the best tools to understand what is accurate and what not.

 

[YSC]

I do yes, in my archives. I believe 1034, 1037 and 1038. From ca. 2010. I'm 10000kms from the office now on a work trip but will dig those out. A studio I did with GENELEC 1037 in the late 00s' is 10min away from my office so I can also drop there for a measurement with my current app.

I think it would be more interested if you can share some of those and compare to the ATCs in those metrics, especially if the distortion and FR smoothing is of higer resolution so more can be read meaningfully, I supposed a pro builder like you should be doing a standard suite of measurements where say, distortion at xdb SPL and FR would be great.