ATC speakers / Monitors

[tuga]

That's what I wrote above with diffusion.

Only what Toole writes, can you provide any data supporting the opposite? By the way I didn't write about early but side wall reflections.

Side-wall reflections can be early and/or late, depending on whether the room is treated/furnished or not.
Early reflections are prejudicial, even if they're subjectively appreciated by many end listeners. A case of room-generated euphonic distortion.

 

[tuga]

I am not saying anything against anyone or firm here but to date we have seen on ASR ATC speakers measured with poor performance.
designers who claim they are the best who happened to partner with them. From a science side there has not been anything to prove the ATC is superior or as good. There is also many other well designed studios with other brands.

Which science side are you referring to?

 

[thewas]

Early reflections are prejudicial, even if they're subjectively appreciated by many end listeners. A case of room-generated euphonic distortion.

That is though just your well respected own opinion as in the literature there seems to be no consense on that question:

The myth of "harmful" early reflections - Klaus Rampelmann

I've just found this interesting piece revising existing literature on the treatment of early reflection areas titled "The myth of "harmful" early reflections" (attached). I haven't read it yet because it's in German (which I can't read) and I've been "cleaning up" the Google translation...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[tuga]

That is though just your well respected own opinion as in the literature there seems to be no consense on that question

The myth of "harmful" early reflections - Klaus Rampelmann

I've just found this interesting piece revising existing literature on the treatment of early reflection areas titled "The myth of "harmful" early reflections" (attached). I haven't read it yet because it's in German (which I can't read) and I've been "cleaning up" the Google translation...

www.audiosciencereview.com

My despised opinion is shared by well respected opinions, for example here

I agree that there is no consensus at the listener/end-user end, it is a matter of preference, but in the studio I am not so sure...


Ultimately using the side walls is distorting the signal that is being transduced by the speakers.

 

[Geert]

There are no “anomalies in the mid-range”, speakers that need to be corrected or other implied contradictions in my post. You are reading your assumptions into it

I see, it's all the readers fault. My comments are a direct response to your quotes. They are there black on white, no assumptions being made.

You just can not get what they offer in a room like Northwards from any other speaker-room system.

Who's making assumptions now? I've been working in studio's on ATC's all my life. I didn't critique ATC, I only commented on your statements about the importance of frequency response and room correction.

Your point about band limited reproduction is moot - that is not relevant for what was discussed

It is, it proves mid range is at least as important as the low end. If the band limiting example is to extreme, attenuate around 2,5kHz with 2dB and see if people still like their speakers.

Point is that FR is never perfect in a room, and it doesn’t have to be as long as the compromises are balanced and system is harmonious. Unless there are obvious deficiencies of course

Sorry but this all statement is mood. It's the exact reason for this never-ending discussion. Please quantify 'balanced compromises', 'harmonious system' and 'obvious deficiencies'. It's clear people attending this discussion have a different understanding of these. That's why I asked @Northward to share some knowledge from the other side of the spectrum. Until then this discussion will never end.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

That is absolutely fine as a part of his job, same as the NS-10 being a consistency standard around different studios but not really the centre of discussion here.

You can always find worse examples, why don't you compare with Genelec and Neumann which also have highest driver quality and are usually cheaper?

Because I looked for speakers designed for soffit mounting, as it offers important and concise acoustic advantages that no cardioid constant directivity or coaxial design can achieve freestanding.

Neumann does not have a design I would consider, and don’t have headroom and sound I want. They are on the warm and polite end of the spectrum to my ears. Genelec main monitor models could have been a contender at a slightly higher price, but their HF presentation is not really workable for me, I find it exhausting over an extended period.

 

[tuga]

So here we go again with this guy says it so because he has years of experience and insists it is based on actual measurements but does not provide them. Others question this, it then goes into a challenge of said persons authority and the crying of "this is why I do not participate in these forums" starts again.

Why not show some anonymous actual measurements if the clients need to be protected?
No instead we get the forums on this side siding with one person, and others on the other side of the fence of Audio Science asking for some evidence.

This is why it is so hard to have a real forum on Science based measurements as even here it jumps off into a belief system of do not question the authority.

Can you define "Science based measurements"?

 

[Torbachkristensen]

I see, it's all the readers fault. My comments are a direct response to your quotes. They are there black on white, no assumptions being made.



Who's making assumptions now? I've been working in studio's on ATC's all my life. I didn't critique ATC, I only commented on your statements about the importance of frequency response and room correction.



It is, it proves mid range is at least as important as the low end. If the band limiting example is to extreme, attenuate around 2,5kHz with 2dB and see if people still like their speakers.



Sorry but this all statement is mood. It's the exact reason for this never-ending discussion. Please quantify 'balanced compromises', 'harmonious system' and 'obvious deficiencies'. It's clear people attending this discussion have a different understanding of these. That's why I asked @Northward to share some knowledge from the other side of the spectrum. Until then this discussion will never end.

Please stop quoting out of context, and stating opinions I have not expressed. All of my points have been further explained in the quoted post and earlier posts. They are consistent and as precise as I can do it in a 2nd language. I am here to discuss, not argue. Thanx

 

[tuga]

There are cars available for those prices. IME ATC = overpriced.

There are cars available at many prices.

One of the things which Toole said with which I agree is that Audio is engineering.
Price is marketing, a whole 'nother subject.

Why do people keep bandying the word "Science" around in meaningless ways, or fail to understand the law of supply and demand, the meaning of luxury goods, or a simple concept like personal preference?

This crusade against overpriced audio equipment has nothing to do with Science... Shouldn't we instead discuss market economy, lobbyism/corruption and the absence of regulation?

 

[Frgirard]

Because I looked for speakers designed for soffit mounting, as it offers important and concise acoustic advantages that no cardioid constant directivity or coaxial design can achieve freestanding.

Neumann does not have a design I would consider, and don’t have headroom and sound I want. They are on the warm and polite end of the spectrum to my ears. Genelec main monitor models could have been a contender at a slightly higher price, but their HF presentation is not really workable for me, I find it exhausting over an extended period.

Preference, preference.... This thread becomes ultra ridiculous.
I use kh420 and my preference are opposite to your preference so MEASURES and no feelings.

Stop taking people for idiots. You and the ATC sect.

 

[Frgirard]

There are cars available at many prices.

One of the things which Toole said with which I agree is that Audio is engineering.
Price is marketing, a whole 'nother subject.

Why do people keep bandying the word "Science" around in meaningless ways, or fail to understand the law of supply and demand, the meaning of luxury goods, or a simple concept like personal preference?

This crusade against overpriced audio equipment has nothing to do with Science... Shouldn't we instead discuss market economy, lobbyism/corruption and the absence of regulation?

You know what is the science? The science has no place here. There are no truths in the speakers world, only different practices.
Engineering, technologies and in this case the cost is a parameter.

 

[tuga]

Answer these questions above too and I will share some data yes. Otherwise I am just not willing to give any time and energy dealing with armchair quarterbacks. I'm done with deaf conversations and constant data misinterpretation on fora. It is a real issue.

I want to know the person requesting and reading the data has some form of understanding of basic acoustic principles.

Though I've shared some data before...It's out there.

I am sorry to say that your expectations are misplaced, @Purité Audio is an audio dealer and there are no technical expertise or knowledge requirements for dealers.

 

[tuga]

You know what is the science? The science has no place here. There are no truths in the speakers world, only different practices.
Engineering, technologies and in this case the cost is a parameter.

What made you so angry and bitter? (about ATC and life in general)

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Preference, preference.... This thread becomes ultra ridiculous.
I use kh420 and my preference are opposite to your preference so MEASURES and no feelings.

Stop taking people for idiots. You and the ATC sect.

Are you serious? I answered a specific question from another user, which related to my personal preference. That toxic energy is just pointless.

 

[Geert]

Please stop quoting out of context, and stating opinions

Don't start blaming others when you get confronted with your own statements. What was the context maybe of you accusing me to not understand what ATC has to offer?

 

[YSC]

Because I looked for speakers designed for soffit mounting, as it offers important and concise acoustic advantages that no cardioid constant directivity or coaxial design can achieve freestanding.

Neumann does not have a design I would consider, and don’t have headroom and sound I want. They are on the warm and polite end of the spectrum to my ears. Genelec main monitor models could have been a contender at a slightly higher price, but their HF presentation is not really workable for me, I find it exhausting over an extended period.

So where did you found your listening experience in? I do wonder if you could have a pre order demo in a fully designed room around all speakers on your list, not freestanding to make all those impressions.

I forgot where but Neumann kh420 seems can be soffit mounted, for genelec main monitors I just wonders was that impression is in a specially designed room for it, or say, an atc based room design and swap the hole with a genelec.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Don't start blaming others when you get confronted with your own statements. What was the context maybe of you accusing me to not understand what ATC has to offer?

I wasn’t accusing you of anything, what do you mean? I just expanded on why the combination of soffit mounting and ATC is superior to most other freestanding solutions I have heard. I think that was pretty clear, and I can’t really see where I made any accusations.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

So where did you found your listening experience in? I do wonder if you could have a pre order demo in a fully designed room around all speakers on your list, not freestanding to make all those impressions.

I forgot where but Neumann kh420 seems can be soffit mounted, for genelec main monitors I just wonders was that impression is in a specially designed room for it, or say, an atc based room design and swap the hole with a genelec.

You cannot just swap a soffit mounted speaker for another, the soffit is built to exact dimensions.

I have travelled to various studios to hear PMC and ATC installs. Certainly not all were good. Genelec mains, augspurger and 420 can be found locally. 420 can be soffit mounted with a Kit from neumann to remove the Amp pack yes. I also tried 8351, Dutch, Meyer Amie, Pulsar and Focal Trio. All in a very good room, but even the best rooms are not free of boundary properties that will affect freestanding speaker’s performance. These properties can be largely removed in a good soffit mount solution.

The ATC mids and HF aligned best with my preferences, and measured great in good rooms and not very good in lesser rooms. So no doubt; as a freestanding speaker alot of the other brands had better performance (especially in the lowmids and lows). But ultimately did not compete with a good soffit mounted ATC system. These are all just my personal experiences, so take that for what it is

As said before, I don’t view any of the speakers as perfect, I see it as different compromises for the best fit, for a certain room design philosophy. There are lots of great speakers, none of them will be the perfect match for all rooms and use cases.

 

[Frgirard]

There is no reason to doubt the superiority of soffit mounting when done with speakers designed for it.

 

[Frgirard]

You cannot just swap a soffit mounted speaker for another, the soffit is built to exact dimensions.

I have travelled to various studios to hear PMC and ATC installs. Certainly not all were good. Genelec mains, augspurger and 420 can be found locally. 420 can be soffit mounted with a Kit from neumann to remove the Amp pack yes. I also tried 8351, Dutch, Meyer Amie, Pulsar and Focal Trio. All in a very good room, but even the best rooms are not free of boundary properties that will affect freestanding speakers performance.

The ATC mids and HF aligned best with my preferences, and measured great in good rooms and not very good in lesser rooms. So no doubt; as a freestanding speaker alot of the other brands had better performance (especially in the lowmids and lows). But ultimately did not compete with a good soffit mounted ATC system. These are all just my personal experiences, so take that for what it is

As said before, I don’t view any of the speakers as perfect, I see it as different compromises for the best fit, for a certain room design philosophy. There are lots of great speakers, none of them will be the perfect match for all rooms and use cases.

No, we can see b&w speakers in studio designed by Northward : Amsterdam mastering.

Northward say a room must designed around the speakers. My evil spirit would translate to: I make room to correct the faults of the loudspeakers that I use and whose design I know will not change.
The design change would force me to review my process