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Investigating Role of Placebo in Audio

amirm

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This topic may have been beat to death but I have some personal data to share that I think is lessor know.

Let's start with the problem set. There are thousands and thousands of audiophiles that believe in thousands of audio products making an improvement or having audible effect, that audio science and engineer dismisses as having any value.

The problem we face is the argument that so many people can't be wrong. And that it is the science that has a blind spot here. They point to experiences they have where they routinely hear night and day differences. Yes, they are not bias controlled and we could conclude the argument there but I think there is more to it. And it is something I personally learned from reading an online blog (sorry the name/link escapes me for the moment).

Let me start with a story of my own. I am at RMAF show at the Synergistic suite. Most of you know that they produce some of the most eye raising products when it comes to efficacy. Yet I heard they were going to do an AB of everything they sell. I sit there in a packed room and they proceed to do exactly that.

One of the products they have are these tiny sticky tabs. They are probably the width of your thumb or thereabouts. When I walked in, I saw a few of them in the ceiling. The played some music and then proceeded to put a few of them around the face of the loudspeaker. They then played the same song again. This time, the sound was more open, higher resolution, etc.

As you can imagine, I was one heck of a skeptic. No way, no how would a tiny thing like that make such a difference. Yet here I was and the improvement was the proverbial "night and day." Try as I did to not here that difference, I was hearing it.

So expectation bias was not there. What then leads to someone like me hearing such fidelity improvement. The answer turned out to be simple: listening better. When we are told there is a comparison and that something will be added, we tend to take the baseline case not so serious. I just listened to the "before" music casually. But when the thumb tacks where added, now I was seeking to hear every tiny amount of difference. And of course, with searching it, I would not hear things that "I did not hear before." The opening of the music and more detail becoming audible were the results of my brain being far more analytical.

I have since applied that technique on purpose. In A/B tests now I can go back to the baseline and with the same intent to hear more, indeed hear more. I now have a powerful tool to get past some of this effect even in the context of sighted listening tests.

Last week for example there was a test of various sampling rates at our local audiophile society. The test started at 44.1, went up to 48 and all the way up to 192 KHz. The change from 44.1 to 48 again was very "audible." I heard this silky cymbal brush (sorry don't know the musical term) being so much more airy in the higher sample rate. In the baseline 44.1 my recollection was that it was no where near as delineated. Right then I caught myself. For the rest of the tests, I only focused on that part of the music and applied control as to whether the effect was searching for fidelity. Like clockwork, I could tailor my perception one way or the other. The mere fact of focusing or not focusing would hugely impact the perception of fidelity.

In summary, sighted A/B testing is not just flawed because it is sighted, but because it is human nature to attempt to analyze the sound for fidelity. And that search results in hearing fidelity that was always there but taken for granted in the baseline case.

Ok, that is my sermon for this Tuesday morning. I have to drive to work and will be in meetings most of the day. So be good :).
 

Thomas savage

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your right and brave to admit this amir. as soon as we engage our conscious minds in 'critical listening' we are doomed. its not opinion, this is the way it is. you need the other half(wife) to upgrade your hifi without telling you, then see what you notis. looks come into it too, we hear what we see as does the pressure of not being 'wrong' when doing listen test. we can also suffer intimidation when in groups even though we might not recognise it. you only have to look at the videos at RMAF of groups raising their hands in listening tests to see how much psychological pressure contributes to results.

its not being so caught up in your ego and allowing yourself to admit weakness that's the talent\rare quality. its the path to meaningful revelation in audio and beyond.

i used to play a game when i was young, with anything that rotates in one direction you can watch it and force it to 'change' direction.. or when you wake up but before you open your eyes, you know what end of the bed you are BUT can convince yourself you down the other end.. really you can totally and when you then open your eyes its quite disorientating despite knowing what you did.

the mind lol dont trust your conscious interpretations.
 

Purité Audio

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The whole area is really tricky, even if there is a difference it may not be an improvement.
Now I want to hear huge undeniable improvements to the sound, if I can't detect it unsighted or only think there may be the slightest difference then why bother?
Keith.
 

Thomas savage

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The whole area is really tricky, even if there is a difference it may not be an improvement.
Now I want to hear huge undeniable improvements to the sound, if I can't detect it unsighted or only think there may be the slightest difference then why bother?
Keith.
yea i call this ' musically relevant change' and its rare imo.
 

Ethan Winer

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Another explanation for why the tiny Synergistic "sticky tabs" changed the sound is fraud. I assume you know Ted Denney's history, and know about the fake data he posted in the Stereophile forum a few years ago? I wouldn't put anything past him, including secretly switching in an EQ with +3 dB at 5 KHz when demo'ing the "with tabs" version.

--Ethan
 

Blumlein 88

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There are many experiences related to this. An odd I had last year mixing some recorded music. Had an idea for using both phase and EQ along with normal panning where I hoped to create a sound that started spread out and over a second or so coalesced into a pinpoint location. All based upon what we know about how our hearing uses phase, and intensity at different frequencies for imaging. All sort of sciency and stuff.

So I spent most of an afternoon with some appropriately similar test signals trying this out over headphones. Finally made some progress and then seemed to hit on just the way to get the effect I wanted. Had a plain and a processed signal open in software which I could solo and switch between for comparison. Was interrupted at that point for a few minutes. Came back, sat down, and hit play. Hearing nothing except the fixed image of the sound. Then I noticed I had just played the processed file. I played it again and yes now it has the shimmer and coalescing effect. However, this bothered me for a few minutes. Later that evening I decided to dump both files in Foobar and give it a go. They both sounded like pinpoint images.

Not at all happy I went back and listened knowing which file was which. Clearly different. Night and day doesn't describe how different. A fixed image of a sound and a sound that shimmers as if coming together from a fog are not easily confused at all. Back to Foobar, and they sound the same. ARGHH!

So the next day I get two other people to listen over phones. Ask them what is different in the two sounds. I am told they don't hear anything going on. I then describe what I am looking for and still am told, " I don't know, I guess I don't have experience with this stuff like you. I don't have hearing good enough to hear it" by one fellow. The other fellow then says sounds the same to him.

For weeks when I know which is which I hear the effect. I cannot un-hear it. Even when I dump it in Foobar and hear no difference. Makes me wonder how many awful mix jobs on recordings sound great to the mixer, and no one else. How can you protect yourself from such issues in that situation?

Now in other cases, it is possible to hear big differences, but having proven to myself they aren't real, I can focus differently and either hear it or not even sighted. Much like Amir's description of the SR dots. Maybe because I spent hours, and effort and performed several steps to make it happen the mixing effect was more ingrained than a simple audition. That effect however I could not un-hear. That would be much like audiophiles that spend hours, contemplate what to do, spend money, and time tuning with various devices to improve their sound system. That too might effectively be impossible to un-hear even once you know it isn't real. That is why a blind test in 99% of the cases is completely ineffective convincing audiophiles these things they are hearing are not real. It certainly mirrors my subjective experience during the years I knew no better and was a regular subjectivist audiophile.

Fascinating stuff for sure.
 

Purité Audio

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I am not so sure that unsighted tests are ineffectual , if you can get the 'believer' to actually participate !
I am always surprised at how vehemently some defend their position, perhaps because if one 'belief' is undermined the whole system will come crashing down?
Magazines ,retailers and some manufacturers have a lot to be responsible for!
Keith
 

Thomas savage

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I am not so sure that unsighted tests are ineffectual , if you can get the 'believer' to actually participate !
I am always surprised at how vehemently some defend their position, perhaps because if one 'belief' is undermined the whole system will come crashing down?
Magazines ,retailers and some manufacturers have a lot to be responsible for!
Keith
yea folks get invested in many ways and on many levels. some of that relates to religious psychosis.. bit strong wording but its true albeit in a milder sense. folks band together and this can cause a break from reality too.
 

Mivera

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One thing we know for certain is, there's a reason for the sound people hear with different components. Whether it's placebo, or real, it's still real to the listener. If the manufacturer of the gear is able to convince the end user that the product is superior using any method they desire, they achieved the goal they were aiming for.
 

Blumlein 88

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I am not so sure that unsighted tests are ineffectual , if you can get the 'believer' to actually participate !
I am always surprised at how vehemently some defend their position, perhaps because if one 'belief' is undermined the whole system will come crashing down?
Magazines ,retailers and some manufacturers have a lot to be responsible for!
Keith

What I have seen is they have an experience that doesn't fit with their worldview. It is uncomfortable because of what might be undermined. If nothing else happens, it gets pushed out of mind as some anomaly. If the experience is repeated even say a few times in a year then it starts to have an effect that isn't so easy to ignore. As it is uncomfortable it isn't something many will seek out. And of course unless someone gets curious enough one certainly can manage to subconsciously make sure there are no repeats. Some do get curious, some do eventually have some sort of epiphany when their mind is prepared to at least genuinely consider the issues involved. You can lead a camel to water, but you can't make him drink? Chance favors the prepared mind?

Yes magazines, retailers and some brands have a lot to be responsible for, but are also the very people telling people what they already want to hear. Their minds have been prepared in one direction which takes advantage of their tendencies. So those very people are defended by those who defraud them. Or as the Twain quote goes it is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
 

Purité Audio

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The few 'hard core' subjectivists I know also tend to eschew any of what I would consider worthwhile tweaks.
I visited one chap's home and acoustically measured his system, but he wasn't in the slightest bit interested in the results.
Although in that particular instance the measured performance was so very very far away from his own subjective opinion of his system ,that he had no real option but to ignore the results.
Keith.
 

Mivera

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The few 'hard core' subjectivists I know also tend to eschew any of what I would consider worthwhile tweaks.
I visited one chap's home and acoustically measured his system, but he wasn't in the slightest bit interested in the results.
Although in that particular instance the measured performance was so very very far away from his own subjective opinion of his system ,that he had no real option but to ignore the results.
Keith.


Never question a good man's ears. Especially if he's a beneficiary of 2nd-3rd generation money. I find the self made crowd usually has a thicker skin.
 

Purité Audio

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Yes I suppose ultimately all is vanity, and the more money you have spent, the more ridiculous you are going to appear, it really is no more than the 'Emperors New Clothes'.
Keith
 
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amirm

amirm

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Another explanation for why the tiny Synergistic "sticky tabs" changed the sound is fraud. I assume you know Ted Denney's history, and know about the fake data he posted in the Stereophile forum a few years ago? I wouldn't put anything past him, including secretly switching in an EQ with +3 dB at 5 KHz when demo'ing the "with tabs" version.

--Ethan
That was the other possible explanation but without data, I didn't want to go there :). Is there a link to the stereophile forum thread that you can find?
 

March Audio

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The whole area is really tricky, even if there is a difference it may not be an improvement.
Now I want to hear huge undeniable improvements to the sound, if I can't detect it unsighted or only think there may be the slightest difference then why bother?
Keith.

Likewise. I see so many times that the most tiny differences are exaggerated into something profound. Also the differences are often just that - an extremely subtle difference but nothing to say it is actually an improvement.

My experience has been that every time I have put people under even the most unobtrusive controls, their incredible self proclaimed aural capabilities evaporate.
 

Opus111

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My experience has been that every time I have put people under even the most unobtrusive controls, their incredible self proclaimed aural capabilities evaporate.

Anywhere you notice self-proclaimed capabilities you would do well to be extremely skeptical. Very basic psychology 101.

'The one who knows doesn't speak. The one who speaks, doesn't know.'
 

March Audio

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Anywhere you notice self-proclaimed capabilities you would do well to be extremely skeptical. Very basic psychology 101.

'The one who knows doesn't speak. The one who speaks, doesn't know.'

Yes, which is why I pay little attention or credence to the unending subjective claims seen in most forums.

I think that the individuals themselves mostly realise their abilities arent as acute as they would like to think. My journey around a few forums has repeatedly shown that if asked to be tested most subjectivists go totally apoplectic and will make up all manner of excuses why controlled testing is invalid.
 

Opus111

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I don't follow your 'reasoning' at all here.

Since you've added further content I'll just clarify that my sentence above applies to your first sentence.
 
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dallasjustice

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