Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[Deleted member 21219]

recording format like cassette or even MiniDisc.

Trippin' down memory lane there, aren't we? Jim

 

[MattHooper]

Ah no Matt, you got that a bit twisted.
The musicians/engineers wanted you to hear what they committed to the master tape.

Sal, that's literally impossible

Nobody got the master tape. No engineer had any reasonable expectation that would be the end product in the consumer's hands.

Therefore, all the efforts were aimed towards the final product to which consumers would actually be listening: the vinyl copy.

The fact there were steps that changed the sonics along the way was simply factored in to the process.

Must I once again have to post how the master must be modified and "distorted" for the cutter head to be able to commit that signal to the lacquer?
Unless some wanker decides to squash the DR when doing a AD converstion, what you hear from the digital file is what the producer wanted you to hear.

Musical artists and producers want you to buy the product and enjoy the music. That's their main goal. These days they often release both on digital and vinyl, because they realize people vary in how they enjoy listening to the music. Consumer choice. You will find very little bemoaning of how vinyl "distorts the intent" of their music. Most are very enthusiastic about releasing their music on vinyl. By going to the very effort of cutting vinyl, it entails that is one way the producers want some people to hear the music.

I invite you to step out of one-track thinking on this, a source of annoyance I'm sure. Join the party over here where we relax and realize there are various methods to musical bliss. We're serving ribs 'n potato salad, too!

 

[Sal1950]

That’s not been my experience. The musicians and engineers I know just want people to enjoy the music and try to make it sound as “good” as possible no matter what people listen on. None of them really care about fidelity or audiophile non-sense.

So they don't care about what they commit to the master?
Is that what your really telling us?

 

[Doodski]

Trippin' down memory lane there, aren't we? Jim

I am being ironic is I think the term. The return to LPs and cassette is irony.

 

[Sal1950]

The return to LPs and cassette is irony.

I can't wait for the return to 8 Tracks.
I remember with such warm nostalgia, sticking that cartridge into the dash and having it play Smoky Robinson on it's continuous loop, while I got busy in the back seat.
Ahhhh the glow it creates in my loins. LOLOL

 

[IPunchCholla]

I've met musicians that are into special cables' sound and special Teflon wire for their guitar circuitry. I find that there are both subjective and objective peeps in the musician crowd. I've met sound engineers that are gung ho into the equipment and specs and want to try as many combos of gear as they have in stock and others just want it to sound as good as possible with what they have to work with. To say that, "None of them really care about..." is a stretch.

You're absolutely right, which is why I qualified it with in my experience. But I have mostly been involved in the DIY/punk scene, so that is selection bias.

 

[Doodski]

I can't wait for the return to 8 Tracks.
I remember with such warm nostalgia, sticking that cartridge into the dash and having it play Smoky Robinson on it's continuous loop, while I got busy in the back seat.
Ahhhh the glow it creates in my loins. LOLOL

I repaired/fiddled with and changed a belt in one 8-track player in my professional repairman life. I used one extensively in a Jeep pickup 4 wheel drive and at times it sounded pretty good and other times it just was missing something. From a repair mindset it was pretty tacky to work on but was all common hand tools only. It was like a carburetor with levers and linkages with added belts and rotating parts. The changeover to digital everything was such a advancement that they are orders of magnitude improved.

 

[Newman]

Better to be able to discuss such things cordially, without fear of judgment, than to segregate into social media echo chambers. ASR is intended to be a welcoming place to any who are interested in learning about and discussing audio.

Looking for the first sign that “Dr” newbie has such an interest, beyond labelling people as “trapped in their measurements-only dogma” within his first few posts. Does that sound like someone who came here hoping to be welcomed, or does it sound more like someone determined to dish out?

 

[Doodski]

You're absolutely right, which is why I qualified it with in my experience. But I have mostly been involved in the DIY/punk scene, so that is selection bias.

Yes, I somewhat skipped that, "Experience" part. I should have underscored it in my mind's eye and responded accordingly. Sorry about that. Why would the DIY/Punk scene be different?

 

[Sal1950]

Sal, that's literally impossible

Nobody got the master tape. No engineer had any reasonable expectation that would be the end product in the consumer's hands.

Therefore, all the efforts were aimed towards the final product to which consumers would actually be listening: the vinyl copy.

The fact there were steps that changed the sonics along the way was simply factored in to the process.

What?
Your clutching at straws and distorting the facts.

If the master was intended to be the direct source of the vinyl, it would have
It's bass centered,
Vocals would be de-ess'd
High frequency (cymbals, etc) tamed.
Songs ordered by dynamic range and FR.

That's not how its ever been done.
That's all done after the fact letting the lathe operator determine how hard to lean on the master.

 

[Doctor Big]

Looking for the first sign that “Dr” newbie has such an interest, beyond labelling people as “trapped in their measurements-only dogma” within his first few posts. Does that sound like someone who came here hoping to be welcomed, or does it sound more like someone determined to dish out?

Only a few of you. You self-identify. The majority of people in this thread seem open minded and happy to discuss topics that are at a tangent to the intent of this site.

Edit: And really, why should this site be any different? If I head on over to a subjectivist site and say that cables all sound the same, I'll get dog-piled because "if you haven't listened you don't have an opinion." That's the danger of surrounding oneself with people who share the same opinion. You can - if you lack self awareness - become rigid and unable to escape your preconceptions.

Matt Hooper is one of those people whose opinions are not really aligned with rigid subjectivist OR objectivist viewpoints. That would indicate that he's perhaps on to some truths that escape both sides.

Another edit - I really should think this through a bit more before concluding that I'm done. Anyway, I have a damn good vinyl rig. OBJECTIVELY it sounds really nice. But I'd wager you wouldn't even need to LISTEN to it because it's vinyl based, so it's gonna sound like shit right?

That's the test - if you sat downstairs in my listening room (I promise I wouldn't try to bang you, not like Sal on his harley) with a tasty beer, and listened to some good tunes, could you admit that the system sounded good? Or would you know right off the hop that it's vinyl based and there's lots of wow and distortion that there's no WAY you could listen through?

 

[-Matt-]

Songs ordered by dynamic range and FR.

That's interesting... I guess because the outer tracks are straighter (larger radii) and will have a faster needle speed they can support higher temporal definition, and larger dynamic range (without the needle jumping out of the track) than the inner tracks?

 

[Newman]

Only a few of you. You self-identify. The majority of people in this thread seem open minded and happy to discuss topics that are at a tangent to the intent of this site.

Oh I’m not the one “self-identifying”: you are doing that for us!

Edit: And really, why should this site be any different? If I head on over to a subjectivist site and say that cables all sound the same, I'll get dog-piled because "if you haven't listened you don't have an opinion." That's the danger of surrounding oneself with people who share the same opinion. You can - if you lack self awareness - become rigid and unable to escape your preconceptions.

Preconceptions such as, “Oh this site is relatively dominated by people who rely on measurements, they need to be told how narrow their minds are. Thank goodness that’s where I come in?” Let me know if you are the one being “rigid and unable to escape one’s preconceptions”, or if you are just making beginner mistakes.

Matt Hooper is one of those people whose opinions are not really aligned with rigid subjectivist OR objectivist viewpoints. That would indicate that he's perhaps on to some truths that escape both sides.

Or he is onto some mistakes.

PS only 16 posts so far….

 

[rdenney]

At least, does anyone agree that Vinyl is a veritable pit of snake oil?

Of course. But there’s snake oil just as bad with all forms of digital music transmission, ranging from green sharpie marks on CDs to veil-lifting USB cables.

Rick “knowing that vinyl playback mechanical realities could be tested and evaluated if anyone cared to” Denney

 

[Sal1950]

That's interesting... I guess because the outer tracks are straighter (larger radii) and will have a faster needle speed they can support higher temporal definition, and larger dynamic range (without the needle jumping out of the track) than the inner tracks?

Yes, exactly. Did something I said make it sound reversed?
The most demanding material is placed on the outermost grooves.

 

[Sal1950]

Another edit - I really should think this through a bit more before concluding that I'm done. Anyway, I have a damn good vinyl rig. OBJECTIVELY it sounds really nice. But I'd wager you wouldn't even need to LISTEN to it because it's vinyl based, so it's gonna sound like shit right?

That's the test - if you sat downstairs in my listening room (I promise I wouldn't try to bang you, not like Sal on his harley) with a tasty beer, and listened to some good tunes, could you admit that the system sounded good? Or would you know right off the hop that it's vinyl based and there's lots of wow and distortion that there's no WAY you could listen through?

Dang, you sure come off as believing we're all hard cases.
I'm sure your rig sounds very nice and pleases you, enjoy it.
But if you look at the name of this site, we do value and discuss the technical capabilities of various components and formats.
That's what we do, try and find the best of the only just good.
I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings but vinyl just hasn't been a player in SOTA audio for close to 50 years now.
That's just the cold hard facts.

 

[krabapple]

To hammer this point home, Harleys are like vinyl. Both have their charms and both are successful products DESPITE their technical inferiority.

Jesus H Christ on a motorbike*, how many times does this gem of wisdom about vinyl need to be re-polished here? Yes, we know! Some vinylphiles (VPs) adore vinyl regardless of its acknowledged technical inferiority to digital! Bravo! But why oh "why do records sound so much better then digital"? Because the rest of online vinylphiles are MFs (Mikey Fremers). Mulish demi-trolls on boards like this one.

*Also everyone please STFU about motorcycles here. They make enough obnoxious noise already IRL.

 

[levimax]

It's bass centered,
Vocals would be de-ess'd
High frequency (cymbals, etc) tamed.
Songs ordered by dynamic range and FR.

Depending of course a mastering engineer may also add:

Static and Dynamic EQ
Static and Dynamic Gain
Fade in Fade out beginning and end of tracks
"Fly in" additional "sounds"
Other undocumented tricks of the trade

Most all of these "moves" were undocumented and became part of what people originally heard for better or worse. There was a reason the famous mastering engineers got paid decent money and signed their stampers.

 

[mhardy6647]

Or ........... it's more trouble to pirate vinyl. Hmm? Jim

Easy peasy.



Although I'll go on record* as preferring the term archival storage copy to that swashbuckling verb that you used.

_____________
* heh -- see what I did there?

I can't wait for the return to 8 Tracks.
I remember with such warm nostalgia, sticking that cartridge into the dash and having it play Smoky Robinson on it's continuous loop, while I got busy in the back seat.
Ahhhh the glow it creates in my loins. LOLOL

Matchbooks'll have to make a comeback, too, though -- for on-the-fly playback alignment.

 

[levimax]

Jesus H Christ on a motorbike, how many times does this gem of wisdom about vinyl need to be re-polished here? Yes, we know! Some vinylphiles (VPs) adore vinyl regardless of its acknowledged technical inferiority to digital! Bravo! But why oh "why do records sound so much better then digital"? Because the rest of online vinylphiles are MFs (Mikey Fremers). Mulish demi-trolls on boards like this one.

If the thread was titled "I am surprised vinyl sounds as good as it does when it measures orders of magnitude worse than digital" it would have died immediately. Click bait works and this thread has 111 pages and counting to prove it.