Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[MattHooper]

As far as dynamic range goes, sometimes it gets on my nerves. I can never listen to some music late at night for example. As tacky as it may be, take Bolero for example. If you set volume to hear the opening, at the end your neighbors will send you police. If you set it to hear the end, you won't hear nothing from the beginning. Rhapsody in Blue comes to mind. Watching movies is the worst late at night. And it's silly IMO, if you make gunshots louder than speech, it's still not as loud as in real life, so you're just annoying me and not really mimicking real life. Every time I have to turn up volume to hear what they're saying and then lose my sh... when they start shooting. It's just silly and gimmicky. Dude; if you pierce my ear-drum I'm NOT going to think the helicopter is really in my room... Take it down a notch, cool it, you're not fooling anyone.

I feel much the same way (even as someone who works in movie sound!).

There's a question of how much dynamic range can we get, then there's the question of how much dynamic range do we want. Ultimately of course "want" will be up to an individual. But it seems perfectly reasonable to sometimes desire less dynamic range, and you give some examples. I mean, do we REALLY want the sounds of war in a movie to have the real volume and dynamic range of real guns, explosives and jets? We'd all go deaf.

Similarly, I don't know that I actually want a completely realistic level of dynamics much of the time when listening to music at home. Constantly listening to the real dynamics of a drum set, as if it were really in front of me or in my room, would be extremely fatiguing. Whereas I have numerous recordings with, for instance, drum solos that clearly are compressed relative to real life, but that's ok. I can set the volume at a level where I hear the subtle work on the snare, and when the drummer gets explosive in his playing it's exciting and punchy and gives me the musical message, but I can relax while listening rather than being blown out of my seat. And for similar reasons to you, I don't mind the idea of some dynamic compression for symphonic music (it can be done so it isn't too obvious - and most is compressed anyway relative to the real thing).

 

[rdenney]

Going in circles here, folks. Again.

The noise floor in my house sits at about 35 dB. 120 dB SPL is painful. So, if I listen to peaks at 120 dB (which, of course, few systems can do), sounds at the bottom of a CD’s range have to be extracted from ambient noise. For me, that 95-dB range is a practical but still extreme limit. Most of the time I’m listening to peaks at 85 or 90 dB and can’t do much with dynamic range beyond 60 dB or so.

LP playback is self amplifying—the sound coming from the speakers can be heard through the cartridge at higher levels that -60 dB FS. This has an audible effect for music played loudly. That’s why needledrops have to be made with the speakers live to get exactly the same sound at high volumes.

To my ears, that’s a much bigger effect than IGD, which I usually can’t hear. But it’s like cranking up the bass—lots of people may prefer it.

Not very many recordings are made without some gain-riding of one sort or another, just to make the quietest bits audible in normal environments.

I have exactly one album where the mix/mastering for the LP sounded like it had more dynamic range compared to the original CD. Later remasterings often have more compression, but I don’t tend to buy those. I have bought CD versions several times, though, when I didn’t like the compression on the LP.

LPs open up a lot of bass noise just from the vinyl roar. I’ve measured -40 dB FS under 100 Hz, and quite broad in that bottom octave. But this sounds like big-room ambience to most people, making their crappy little hipster efficiency sound more like a concert hall. But even at -40, I only really hear it when playing music loudly, and then only in the quietest bits or between tracks.

An A/B comparison between vinyl and a CD can only be a preference test—the vinyl roar provides enough of a tell to make ABX tests a waste of time. The difference is far too audible to hide.

Even so, if I’m listening to music I like, I can hear right through that stuff. It’s not better by any measure—but it’s (surprisingly) often good enough.

Rick “who has said all this on previous cycles” Denney

 

[Audiofire]

You are right I am way off on quoting the 10 X calculation. Assuming a CD has 96 dB of dynamic range and an LP 60 dB for a difference of 36 dB this works out to 3,980 X more dynamic range potential for the CD format than for the LP format. Which makes the fact that in 2022 that some LPs actually have more dynamic range than the same release on CD completely insane.

How did you calculate it?

If you set volume to hear the opening, at the end your neighbors will send you police. If you set it to hear the end, you won't hear nothing from the beginning.

And you don't like headphones?

Otherwise, dynamic range compression on a CD -- or failure to use the full 96dB range -- is a choice. It has naught to do with 'ears genetically tuned in to a natural environment'. To some people and in some situations it sounds *good*. It can range from useful to heinous. Various forms of compression have been in use in music production for many decades now, and well before the CD era. Every electric bass guitar you ever heard live or on a record probably has some on it, for example.

I don't pretend to know what you really mean by your last quote up there. You can rip your CDs and store them in a cloud if you want to. It won't make them sound better, or worse. You could digitize you LPs and do the same. In this way you can make believe you aren't using ' 'physical formats' , but both will still exist on on some server's drive.

Isn't it true that humans can hear loudspeakers at 96 dB and it would still be rather comfortable, even though it is at the threshold of how loud people should hear? If humans like to have their loud music at 80 dB, then why is it bad to use the 96 dB of dynamic range?

I'm not sure you have seen my reply here on page 96:

I guess online releases are technically physical when they are digital like a CD. Any storage device is a physical format. Then physical formats are just getting started when FLAC allows higher sample rates and bit depth.

Some don't think that digital files are a physical format, but it's kind of pointless when both CDs and hard disk drives are storage devices.

 

[Holmz]

How did you calculate it?
…

100 dB -60 dB is 40dB or 10000x.
97dB 0 60 dB is therefore 5000x, so I guess 96 dB - 60 dB looks like ~4000.

The equation from log to float is:
10^(96/10) / 10^(60/10)

Which can be done as:
10^((96-60)/10)

… Which makes the fact that in 2022 that some LPs actually have more dynamic range than the same release on CD completely insane.

How did you calculate it?
…

It is not “completely” insane, but it seems like it close to complete

 

[killdozzer]

And you don't like headphones?

No, I do like them. They're not always the solution though.

 

[killdozzer]

I don't think I've seen anybody here proclaim that vinyl is 'better' than digital, and I've certainly never been 'desperate' to make my point. I've seen quite a few people say that they prefer, and like the sound of vinyl over digital. That is a purely subjective call, and arguing with that is pointless - your preferences may be different, but never wrong. In some instances, the mastering engineers apply less compression to a vinyl release than the same music on CD. The vinyl would then have a better dynamic range, but that doesn't prove anything one way or the other - it was simply a mastering choice.

If you don't like vinyl, then obviously you should ignore it and move on. People value different things and have different goals. I find cigars abhorrent, but I'm not going to try to convince a cigar smoker that they're wrong in doing so.

To this, I can only say you're lucky! Nothing more. I can barely ever find anyone who is not putting forward at least one aspect in which it is superior. You have to recommend me some of those forums you participate in. I haven't seen one single. Although, bare in mind, that argument "vinyl is 'better' than digital," was at the beginning, before it was disputed. Now days you have variants, as I sad; it's not superior in this aspect, but surely is in that aspect.

It's this endless search for the aspect of superiority I find life-energy-draining. For example, I see you're getting likes from Matt, well, read his condescending posts... It's like, if you're not listening to records you're not even listening to music.

Quite a few are giving it a bad name. OTOH, I never saw that once with @watchnerd but that's an exception. A rare find.

 

[Jaxjax]

I have exactly one album where the mix/mastering for the LP sounded like it had more dynamic range compared to the original CD

Super interesting info, but I'm lost on the above quote. When you say original CD, what exactly do you mean.? My albums don't even no what a CD is. I sure it's obvious & I'm still only on 1 cup of coffee this morning

 

[MattHooper]

To this, I can only say you're lucky! Nothing more. I can barely ever find anyone who is not putting forward at least one aspect in which it is superior. You have to recommend me some of those forums you participate in. I haven't seen one single.

MakeMineVinyl clearly referenced this forum:

"I don't think I've seen anybody here proclaim that vinyl is 'better' than digital,"

Nobody here I'm sure would claim you can't find b.s. being spouted about vinyl elsewhere. Perhaps if you slow down and actually read what people write, you wouldn't find the vinyl discussion (or any others) so taxing.

Speaking of reading what people actually write...

For example, I see you're getting likes from Matt, well, read his condescending posts... It's like, if you're not listening to records you're not even listening to music.

Yet another strawmen? Why bother yourself being frustrated with views people don't actually put forth?

Not only have I never said or implied what you just wrote. I have always been explicit that I never accepted that old nonsense that digital wasn't "musical" as I adopted digital early on and it was essentially my main music source for most of my "audiophile" life. That I completely understand anyone getting more musical joy out of digital, and I have regularly railed against b.s. claims made for Vinyl's superiority, e.g.:

Why do records sound so much better than digital?

Actually, I just want people to stop evangelising to newbies and non-audiophiles that they HAVE to have a turntable to do proper hi-fi, and that's as much because of the cost of multiple sources and media as it is that most people should prefer digital sound according to "the science", and so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"I'm of the same mindset regarding bullshit behind some vinyl proselytizing - the type that touts vinyl as "superior" and "the best sound quality" and this stupid "digital still hasn't caught up to analog" trope....."


I have continually expressed an understanding of why others don't care for vinyl and prefer digital. One of many such instances:

Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

So the vinyl distortions, we are told above, make a sound that is preferred to the digital source file. And yet, when we go to 45rpm, which has LESS of those very same distortions, more like the digital original, we prefer it even more! (cough, cough) I am going to make one last point before I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"I can see that. Your experience makes sense to me.

Listening to records is something I enjoy, but I have never felt compelled to tell anyone else "you really should listen to vinyl." (For reasons just like you cited)."

Again, killdozer, you mention people justifying vinyl as being "life-energy-draining." I suggest try this: Actually read what people write on this forum. Try to understand someone else's point of view if it's different from yours, rather than be ready to knock it down. It seems to me you are triggered by people liking something you don't care much for, and when they dare to explain why they personally like it, for some reason you construct strawmen in response to battle. I certainly can see why that is "draining"...but...why bother?

 

[rdenney]

Super interesting info, but I'm lost on the above quote. When you say original CD, what exactly do you mean.? My albums don't even no what a CD is. I sure it's obvious & I'm still only on 1 cup of coffee this morning

It is the CBS Masterworks release on four LPs of Glass’s Einstein on the Beach, which CBS issued on CD a few years later. I’m not talking about any newer release that may have been remastered. The vinyl version in this case was noticeably more dynamic than the CD, which was a real disappointment. I made that comparison in the late 80’s.

I have not listened to them side by side in many years. I have the CD here somewhere—I should do so again. My current turntable is much better than at that time, and my CD player at the time was a Magnavox CDB-650. Maybe now I would hear it differently. Level-matching might be an issue.

But that wasn’t my point in bringing it up. My point was that I have a number of LPs and the first CDs that were issued of those recordings as they became available. The reduced noise of the CD was usually welcome, but once or twice in my experience the got the CD wrong.

Rick “also has some LPs never released on CD” Denney

 

[MattHooper]

Going in circles here, folks. Again.

The noise floor in my house sits at about 35 dB. 120 dB SPL is painful. So, if I listen to peaks at 120 dB (which, of course, few systems can do), sounds at the bottom of a CD’s range have to be extracted from ambient noise. For me, that 95-dB range is a practical but still extreme limit. Most of the time I’m listening to peaks at 85 or 90 dB and can’t do much with dynamic range beyond 60 dB or so.

My listening room hits a low of around 25dB when no one is around. Not sure when there is activity in the house.

I don't like listening too loud so I tend to average around 75dB, often a bit lower, rare bouts of maybe 80dB. Sometimes between 70 - 75dB. (Unless I'm cranking it to listen from another room).

So the typical dynamic range of vinyl is plenty for me (as is digital).

Deja vu about this:

LP playback is self amplifying—the sound coming from the speakers can be heard through the cartridge at higher levels that -60 dB FS. This has an audible effect for music played loudly. That’s why needledrops have to be made with the speakers live to get exactly the same sound at high volumes.

My turntable is in a separate room well down the hall so doubtful this applies to my set up. The sound is often wall-meltingly expansive. I love it.

 

[Jaxjax]

The sound is often wall-meltingly expansive. I love it.

This is great !!!!!!!
I'm might have to use that one sometime.

 

[MattHooper]

This is great !!!!!!!
I'm might have to use that one sometime.

Ha!

50 cents for each re-use!

For my tastes, I seek pleasing (accurate sounding to me) timbre, dynamics and presence, but it's also the "magic act" of soundstaging and imaging that compels me to sit in the sweet spot for concentrated listening. My ideal is for an "unmechanical" sound, that is the sound of the music sources occurring in free space, without the sense it's coming from the speakers. The same goes for the general timbre of voices and instruments.
A richness and coherency that helps me forget it's being produced by cones 'n domes.

With my current set up it often doesn't seem like there is some hard stopping point circumscribing the soundstage between the speakers. The impression feels more like my room, particular at the plane of the speakers, sort of shape-shifts with each different recording. I love the holodeck effect

I was listening to one of my old Bernard Herrmann LPs (7th Voyage Of Sinbad) and the sound was just nutty! It was like everything beyond the plane of my speakers just melted away in all directions, with the sense of hearing horn sections waaaay back through the hall in "real space," tympani waaay over through the hall to the far right of the speakers, etc. Low bassoons and double basses, tympani just sent waves rumbling along the floor. Utterly intoxicating. Makes all the geeky attention to detail fully worth it!

(Of course it's not strictly relegated to vinyl playback - I get similar sonic thrills from many digital tracks as well).

I know many people here own some stellar hi-fi gear and likely have similar experiences (or maybe some aren't going for exactly the same effect, I don't know). But since I was just listening I was feeling enthused.

 

[krabapple]

I was listening to one of my old Bernard Herrmann LPs (7th Voyage Of Sinbad) and the sound was just nutty!

I have some of that on The Fantasy World of Bernhard Herrmann...from a quadraphonic RTR...as a digital file.

Good stuff.

 

[MattHooper]

I have some of that on The Fantasy World of Bernhard Herrman...from a quadraphonic RTR...as a digital file.

Good stuff.

Awesome. One of my favorites! Also great is The Mysterious Film World Of Bernard Herrmann. The way he recreated the humming texture of a bees wings (for the giant bees in Mysterious Island) with the string section/woodwinds was remarkable.

One of the things I love about the Herrmann soundtracks is they tend to be recorded in a very vivid manner.

 

[Phorize]

Ha!

50 cents for each re-use!

For my tastes, I seek pleasing (accurate sounding to me) timbre, dynamics and presence, but it's also the "magic act" of soundstaging and imaging that compels me to sit in the sweet spot for concentrated listening. My ideal is for an "unmechanical" sound, that is the sound of the music sources occurring in free space, without the sense it's coming from the speakers. The same goes for the general timbre of voices and instruments.
A richness and coherency that helps me forget it's being produced by cones 'n domes.

With my current set up it often doesn't seem like there is some hard stopping point circumscribing the soundstage between the speakers. The impression feels more like my room, particular at the plane of the speakers, sort of shape-shifts with each different recording. I love the holodeck effect

I was listening to one of my old Bernard Herrmann LPs (7th Voyage Of Sinbad) and the sound was just nutty! It was like everything beyond the plane of my speakers just melted away in all directions, with the sense of hearing horn sections waaaay back through the hall in "real space," tympani waaay over through the hall to the far right of the speakers, etc. Low bassoons and double basses, tympani just sent waves rumbling along the floor. Utterly intoxicating. Makes all the geeky attention to detail fully worth it!

(Of course it's not strictly relegated to vinyl playback - I get similar sonic thrills from many digital tracks as well).

I know many people here own some stellar hi-fi gear and likely have similar experiences (or maybe some aren't going for exactly the same effect, I don't know). But since I was just listening I was feeling enthused.

Dammit, until I read this post I was a hairs breadth away from selling all of my turntable gear (to minimise clutter). You are right though, the joy of an lp is only accessible to those who suspend their disbelief. Dare I speculate that the very value of the medium is drawn from the necessary process of abandoning all skepticism? It’s all compatible with a grown up life provided that the hallucination ends when the record stops, else we all become Mike Fremer.

 

[Newman]

The greater joy of higher fidelity from digital and MCH is also only accessible to those who suspend their disbelief in complicated, high-tech, computerized, newfangled, big-corporation, wizzbangery ever being able to convey the magic of art better than simple, natural, pure, classic (lol, lol and lol) analoguery.

Disbelief works both ways.

 

[Sal1950]

Dare I speculate that the very value of the medium is drawn from the necessary process of abandoning all skepticism?

All I know is spending endless dollars on LP playback and buying new LPs, then claiming to be audiophile and that you care about SQ, in this Year of Our Lord 2022 is complete hogwash. There are more than enough digital musical performances of any genre to last us all the rest of our lives. You don't need to lower your standards to below a mp3 level to fill your internal catalog with SOTA digital recordings, till death do we part.
If you really enjoy all the distortions of an LP source, can ignore all the weaknesses, and don't mind (or actually enjoy) all the inconvinence of playing with them, be my guest.
It's been over 25 years since I put all that behind me, and never missed a note.

 

[Phorize]

The greater joy of higher fidelity from digital and MCH is also only accessible to those who suspend their disbelief in complicated, high-tech, computerized, newfangled, big-corporation, wizzbangery ever being able to convey the magic of art better than simple, natural, pure, classic (lol, lol and lol) analoguery.

Disbelief works both ways.

Of course, but unless we are going to ignore the literature on cognitive neuroscience and social psychology we should temper our statements as to what joy is ‘greater’ with acknowledgment of the fact that when it comes to predicting what an individual will enjoy, the data will only ever indicate what is probable. This is all about evidence of preference of course, and we haven’t got into the epistemological thresholds that would need to be met to effectively characterise a preference for an ancient audio technology as ‘wrong’.

 

[Audiofire]

Dare I speculate that the very value of the medium is drawn from the necessary process of abandoning all skepticism?

It is worth considering that the medium has historical significance like the old recordings, which many still think are good music.

 

[MattHooper]

Dammit, until I read this post I was a hairs breadth away from selling all of my turntable gear (to minimise clutter). You are right though, the joy of an lp is only accessible to those who suspend their disbelief. Dare I speculate that the very value of the medium is drawn from the necessary process of abandoning all skepticism? It’s all compatible with a grown up life provided that the hallucination ends when the record stops, else we all become Mike Fremer.

Very well put!