Powernode (2021) vs H/K Citation vs Sonos Amp vs NAD D 3045

[Keane16]

Hi,

I've been looking for a new amp to connect to my TV. Speakers are Kef Q150. Sub is a BK Elec P12-300SB-PR.

Requirements:

• Connect via HDMI utilising ARC (CEC is important for family friendliness - single remote).
• A high pass filter (I like removing the low-end weight from the fronts, leaving that to the sub - I find this improves dialogue for TV use).
• Don't want a hulking great AVR to keep the wife happy (had a Denon 2312 previously). Last/current amp was a NAD D 3045 (which has an issue and is sadly to be returned). It matched the Denon's sound output (to my ear) whilst being cheaper, cooler and smaller so want to stick with small box class D.
• [Nice to have, not a deal breaker] native AirPlay support allowing music playback without requiring to turn on the TV.

Usage :

• Mostly TV and movies with music thrown in. 80/20 split at a guess.
• Source is an Apple TV 4K - both streamed content and rips played from a NAS (music and video).
• I don't have a need for hi-res audio support (none of my sources support it).

The NAD was great. 'Only' 60wpc @ both 8 and 4 ohms but went cleanly up to 80dB on my SPL at my listening position which is the loudest we'd need (and only occasionally that loud). That was at around -20db on the amp (so the unit wasn't being driven to it's limit).

I've narrowed my search to the title devices which meet my requirements.

Reviews often state the Powernode sounds better than the Sonos, without much further explanation. I'm wondering if that's with a hi-res source i.e. irrelevant in my usage, or because it has better components (the HybridDigital amp similar to the NAD D 3045). Better engineered in some other way. Or maybe paid ads serving as reviews(!).

The device that intrigues me most is the H/K Citation amp. Plenty of power for this segment and the ASR thread is full of people excited by the technology (coming clean many of the technical details go over my head). However the reports of the unit running hot are concerning, I'd like this device to last 10 years+ like my Denon did (in the ASR thread one owner actually drilled holes all around his case).

Some headline specs that may help (or not, as they're not all equally disclosed...):

Feature	NAD D 3045​	Sonos Amp​	Harman Kardon Citation Amp​	Bluesound Powernode​
Power	60wpc @ 8 or 4 ohms	125wpc @ 8 ohms	125wpc @ 8 ohms, 200wpc @ 4 ohms	80wpc @ 8 ohms
THD	20Hz – 20kHz <0.003% at 2V out	20Hz to 20KHz < 0.005%	0.05%	0.008%
SNR	>100dB (IHF, A-weighted, ref. 500mV out, unity gain)	116dB	>110dB A-Weighted	-100dBA
DAC/DDFA (link to technical specs)	AKM AK4490EQ	Qualcomm CSRA6620	Axign AX5689	TI PCM5242
Wireless playback	Bluetooth	AirPlay 2	AirPlay 2	AirPlay 2
Price	£699	£699	£529	£849

I guess my question is - is there is any clear technical advantage to any of them for my use case. I'm currently leaning towards the Sonos due to price, user facing features, power and no heat issues. Worst case I guess I can return it and see if I can get another NAD. Would love to try a Powernode, but I can't see why I'd pay that much (assume BluOS jacks up the price - nice features I don't really need).

 

[PeterOo]

The Citation Amp does not apply high pass filtering to the left and right channels. Only an adjustable low pass for the line out for the sub. So that does not meet one of your requirements.
It is running a bit hot. Mine is in a cupboard, so that does not help. Some people report it runs cooler when you place it vertical.
personally I am really impressed with the sound quality. Denon PMA1500R and Onkyo SR606 being my only comparison. And I find having chromecast and Airplay without having to run any Denon apps rather convenient.

if it fails I will probably buy/build a Purify or Hypex based amp. Or a better Axign based amp if there are more of them at that time. I think Axign is on to something big, but the main (only?) advantage over hypex and encore is pricing. I thought about the new Powernode, but it was not released at the time. Other Axign based amps measure well and they claim the quality is almost module independent.

 

[dlaloum]

Your speakers are relatively normal 8ohm speakers, with dips in impedance dropping no lower than 3.7 Ohm.

Honestly, there should be no audible difference between any of these amps

 

[Keane16]

Hi, thanks for the responses.

The Citation Amp does not apply high pass filtering to the left and right channels. Only an adjustable low pass for the line out for the sub.

I saw this on the FAQ (scroll down to near the bottom):

Additional subwoofer information

High pass filter
When the subwoofer is connected, the main channels are "Small", meaning that there is a high-pass filter. This ensures proper blending with the subwoofer.

No customisation details. So I assume it’s a default 80Hz? Which would be fine for my needs. I had the NAD set to 80Hz too.

Some people report it runs cooler when you place it vertical.

Yeah saw this too. I don’t have that kind of vertical space unfortunately. (And I won’t be drilling holes into the unit either, haha!).

Which is why I leaned towards the Sonos. I don’t know if I want to see if the heat affects the longevity of the Citation. Which is a shame as it ticks a lot of boxes. It's also strange as the Citation has a fan and the Sonos is passive, but seems to stay cooler. Wish they'd just made the Citation box a bit bigger or added a bigger fan/improved heatsink.

Denon PMA1500R and Onkyo SR606 being my only comparison.

Good to get real world views especially sound quality against older, well reviewed units from established players.

When I did light, ear based, A/B testing between my Denon AVR-2312 (LG TV set to Auto output = sending Dolby where applicable), vs the NAD (LG set to PCM, only stereo), I honestly couldn't tell any difference. Even tested some fav bass heavy scenes from films and to my ear it was pretty much indistinguishable. Maybe a slight edge to the NAD for output to the fronts - but that could be buyer bias.

And I find having chromecast and Airplay without having to run any Denon apps rather convenient.

Absolutely. The wife especially will like this, the lower the friction the better. And not needing to turn on the TV is bonus too - I have a an OLED so not having to display static album art for a long periods is a plus. Aside from the hardware issue with the NAD the biggest knock against it is only having Bluetooth not AirPlay, I’m not a fan of Bluetooth at all, it’s clumsy in comparison.

Your speakers are relatively normal 8ohm speakers, with dips in impedance dropping no lower than 3.7 Ohm.

Honestly, there should be no audible difference between any of these amps

Good to know. Still puzzles me why I see so many comments/reviews (again, without hard evidence) saying the Powernode sounds better than the Sonos.

I'll pull the trigger on the Sonos and see how I get on. Will report back.

 

[RobHWS]

The Citation Amp does not apply high pass filtering to the left and right channels. Only an adjustable low pass for the line out for the sub. So that does not meet one of your requirements.

Dear Peter. I have one too I can guarantee it has a high pass filter. High pass selectable from 50 to 120 to satellites, as per sub low pass setting on the app. Do you want to try it? Switch off your sub, and change the xover frequency!

 

[RobHWS]

Hi, thanks for the responses.


I saw this on the FAQ (scroll down to near the bottom):

Hi Keane. It HAS variable high pass filtering.

I have one, so tested and tried - and currently cutting my satellites at 70Hz. No conspiracy theories of people that may or might not have one.

When a RCA cable is connected to sub output the satellite signal will be cut to the frequency you set on the app. At night I switch off my sub and keep the cable connected. The speakers are correctly still limited to the frequency I setup. If I disconnect the sub cable then satellites will switch to full range.

It does run very hot which is weird and annoying and it will require a fan if in a small cabinet.

The ir repeater you see in front of it is for other devices. The unit has its own ir repeater.

(Virtual) Surround is quite good with 2.1 system like mine. But basically you must be sitting in the exact middle of the speakers, if someone else is sitting right or left of you on the sofa, they will get a massive reduction of surround effects...but this is like any other virtual system. Of course if you have the rear speakers that will improve, but I haven't tried it.

 

[PeterOo]

Hi Keane. It HAS variable high pass filtering.

I have one, so tested and tried - and currently cutting my satellites at 70Hz. No conspiracy theories of people that may or might not have one.

When a RCA cable is connected to sub output the satellite signal will be cut to the frequency you set on the app. At night I switch off my sub and keep the cable connected. The speakers are correctly still limited to the frequency I setup. If I disconnect the sub cable then satellites will switch to full range.

[…]

That is a pleasant surprise. I remember in more than one review stating it does not do high pass filtering. I do not use it with a sub myself.

 

[RobHWS]

That is a pleasant surprise. I remember in more than one review stating it does not do high pass filtering. I do not use it with a sub myself.

That is a pleasant surprise. I remember in more than one review stating it does not do high pass filtering. I do not use it with a sub myself.

Perfect example to show how many fake reviewers and experts are around.
One day, one person made a “fake” review. The all remaining “reviewers” copy and paraphrase that person. This is how misinformation spreads.

There are a couple of possible real reviews (not in English). However they did not try the amp with a sub. If you do not connect the sub cable, the crossover will not engage.

The sub management need anyway some refinement. For instance, it is perplexing that if you want to listen in full range the front speakers you must physically remove the cable from the back of the amp (and hopefully remember to switch off the sub to avoid to destroy your sub or neighbours’ ears).

Once the sub is physically connected there is no way to exclude it. The only “remote” trick is to cut it to 50hz and lower down the level via app (webpage...). But satellites will still be crossed at 50hz in that case so not a real solution.

Im running current firmware release 366 (weirdly matches the airplay version but differs from Chromecast version).

 

[Keane16]

Hi Keane. It HAS variable high pass filtering.

Hi thanks for the confirming the FAQ (plus all the other useful details). Went ahead with the Sonos, due to the heat reports on the HK. Unfortunately it was out of stock so waiting for a delivery.

 

[blursch]

Hi, i'm also interested in the HK citation amp, mainly because of the axign technic inside, the analog input and the relative low price.

I'm just astonished about the often-mentioned point, that the amp gets hot even if no music is played.
Does anyone of you measured the power consumption in "standby" / turned on without playing music?

 

[PeterOo]

Hi, i'm also interested in the HK citation amp, mainly because of the axign technic inside, the analog input and the relative low price.

I'm just astonished about the often-mentioned point, that the amp gets hot even if no music is played.
Does anyone of you measured the power consumption in "standby" / turned on without playing music?

I have it in a small cupboard. The temperature in the cupboard was 22C, the housing was 4131C with the Amp in standby/off. The fan is never on when the Amp is in standby/off.

Power consumption measured with a Hombli smart plug was below 1W when off and 29-30W when on. Power consumption did not change when there is no music or music playing on a moderate level (other people in the room so I cannot turn it up really loud).
If you do not play any sound the Amp will turn off (standby) after about 20 minutes.

one time when the fan was on while the Amp was off I just had to power cycle it. Like most appliances that run an actual OS, it may need a power cycle every few months.

edit:fixed typo

 

[blursch]

I have it in a small cupboard. The temperature in the cupboard was 22C, the housing was 4131C with the Amp in standby/off. The fan is never on when the Amp is in standby/off.

Power consumption measured with a Hombli smart plug was below 1W when off and 29-30W when on. Power consumption did not change when there is no music or music playing on a moderate level (other people in the room so I cannot turn it up really loud).
If you do not play any sound the Amp will turn off (standby) after about 20 minutes.

one time when the fan was on while the Amp was off I just had to power cycle it. Like most appliances that run an actual OS, it may need a power cycle every few months.

edit:fixed typo

Thank you very much, for the fast response and measurements!
Actually not that bad as i thought. Considering that it is not only a power amp, but also contains a streamer with arm-cpu, wifi and so on..... it is still a little bit too much, but maybe i give him a trail.

 

[PeterOo]

this week after playing at moderate levels (eurovision song contest semi finals ) for about 1,5 hours the temperature of the Citation Amp outside was 52 C, while the temperature in the cupboard was 28 C.
I am getting a bit worried if the Amp can endure this for many years.

 

[Darwin]

Sonos is the only one that integrates Apple music in their app and playin from the app sounds better than Airplay 2 plus doesn't use up your phone battery.

 

[LFO]

Hello everyone,
Long time lurker here but didn't have reason for posting so far.
I'll write my experience with Harman Kardon Citation Amp as it is hard to find and longer term reviews on this one.
Unfortunately, I can't recommend it, even I love it's functionalities and sounding. The problem is - flawed design.

I had to return 2 units so far as both of these developed issue with overheating which threw red blinking led status error and hard clicking noise after which you can only shut it down and wait for it to cool down.
Amps were placed on top of shelf in open space and there was plenty of room around it on every side and it was running on room temp in airconditioned room.
First unit developed this issue after only one month of usage, while second one was lasting less than 6 months and started showing same problems few days ago.
There are multiple reports of this issue over internet. I remember seeing couple of reports of this on Harman's own website for this product (Q&A section) after it happened to my first unit, but seems like they have deleted it now, which is really bad move.
You can find this short video on youtube (it's not mine) which is showing how it looks: Harman Kardon Citation Amp - FAULT
Sound wise it is very good with great imaging and plenty of low end, in that price range nothing come close, but that issue is showstopper.
Harman acknowledged this problem and they got a lot of complaint for this (as per my local distributor).
Apparently there is new batch of production coming soon after a long pause because of chip shortage, but there is no words whether they fixed this issue or not.

 

[PeterOo]

Hello everyone,
[…]
Apparently there is new batch of production coming soon after a long pause because of chip shortage, but there is no words whether they fixed this issue or not. […]

Good to hear they are not discontinuing the product. I have been waiting for over a year for a firmware update.
Too bad you ran into problems two amps already. Me and my son both have one running without problems. Indeed very little user reviews online, so I wonder how much they actually sold.
I have seen request from people wanting to buy Citation Amps with this problem, so it appears somebody at least knows how to fix it.

 

[LFO]

Hopefully, they will figure it out without changing hardware, via firmware, but I am a bit skeptical regarding that.
They should put a bit less power in it (e.g. 2x80W RMS), with more stable temperatures.
SONOS has same amount of power and it's running cooler even without fan (only passive cooling).

 

[LFO]

I am wondering if anyone compared Harman Kardon Citation Amp to Bluesound Powernode ?

 

[RobHWS]

I am wondering if anyone compared Harman Kardon Citation Amp to Bluesound Powernode ?

I did last week. I had a friend's Powernode 2021 for a couple of days together with my Citiation Amp.
I promise - I will write something when I've got a few minutes.
Spoiler alert - there is not clear winner - but ...

 

[RobHWS]

Hello everyone,
...
Sound wise it is very good with great imaging and plenty of low end, in that price range nothing come close, but that issue is showstopper.
Harman acknowledged this problem and they got a lot of complaint for this (as per my local distributor).
Apparently there is new batch of production coming soon after a long pause because of chip shortage, but there is no words whether they fixed this issue or not.

Agree 100%.
Also, how do you know about the new batch? That is quite an important piece of news. Especially if H/K replace the "first" one, aka our units. Can I ask who is your local distributor?