ASR burning the wrong witches?

[DWI]

So now you admit to actually doing some homework on the gear other than the "ears only" approach you claimed in the beginning. If you hadn't, you very possibly could have purchased a "sows ear"

I read the review long after I bought the product. I don't talk about specific products I own now, I prefer only to refer to products I have owned, but the product in question was widely praised for several years and still is. I'd heard it several times because other manufacturers chose to use it to demonstrate their products.

Where I am it's not a case of going to a dealer and listening to a few speakers and making a decision. Dealers do event days and you get to hear a range of products and how certain brands voice their speakers. When I then actually want a change, I do my own demo or a home loan. It is a straight loan with no commitment, not sale or return like some direct sellers.

I have never bought any esoteric speakers, I like tried and trusted on the basis you can fool some people some of the time, but not all the people all the time. Mostly based on BBC designs.

I recently bought a new phono stage. It has never been reviewed or measured. It wasn't cheap either. What do you do then?

 

[Multicore]

And why cannot anyone be more than just one of those?

Clearly they could be all of them. My point is to examine the meaning of these nouns.

 

[techguypaul]

"Buy well-recorded CDs.” what terrible advice!
That's like saying only buy art that looks real.

 

[dfuller]

This on Billie Eilish - "Happier Than Ever" track? Artistic maybe, but terrible to listen to, unnecessary distortion. Makes you check it on headphones to see if there is something wrong with your speakers. You need to cut this shit out.

View attachment 208520

Oh no, Happier Than Ever is entirely intentional. That's not bad recording technique, that's an artistic choice, probably by Finneas and Billie.

 

[Sal1950]

The simple answer is that to ASR an audiophile is someone ho doesn't rely purely on the measured performance carried out by ASR.

Completely wrong and a perfect example of why you just don't "get it" here.

I read the review long after I bought the product. I don't talk about specific products I own now, I prefer only to refer to products I have owned, but the product in question was widely praised for several years and still is. I'd heard it several times because other manufacturers chose to use it to demonstrate their products.

One hell of a circular verbal dance you're doing DWI, it's getting (been) very entertaining.

And why cannot anyone be more than just one of those?

Why indeed !
Hey there Kal, good to see you around tonight!
May the "In The Round" force be with you.

 

[DWI]

Completely wrong and a perfect example of why you just don't "get it" here.

The impression here is that if you don't follow the ASR mantra you are an audiophile or audiofool. You're in or out. You can't just be someone who likes listening to music and buys audio equipment in a shop to do so, based on what sounds good, at a price that they can afford, without spending lots of money on accessories like cables.

I think the fundamental error is to assume that the audio buying world exists and relies upon forums. That may be the case in the USA, but does not appear to be the case in the UK.

One hell of a circular verbal dance you're doing DWI, it's getting (been) very entertaining.

Well, that's how I buy audio equipment, which is not very often, usually having heard various brands over a period of years. If possible, I speak direct to the manufacturer and ask some pertinent questions, like what the design objective was for a product. That influenced my choice of server and turntable. Contrast with ASR's review I think of the very popular Mytek DAC, where there were things he did not like on measuring (clipping and an harmonic) but turned out to be design objectives, both of which could actually be switched off. So he rejected a very good DAC because he didn't understand the product. In fact the real benefit of the dealer events I go to is that the manufacturer/designer gets an opportunity to explain what their products are about and answer questions.

All I'm really describing is the traditional way of choosing audio equipment offline, not online.

 

[antcollinet]

The impression here is that if you don't follow the ASR mantra you are an audiophile or audiofool. You're in or out. You can't just be someone who likes listening to music and buys audio equipment in a shop to do so, based on what sounds good, at a price that they can afford, without spending lots of money on accessories like cables.

I think the fundamental error is to assume that the audio buying world exists and relies upon forums. That may be the case in the USA, but does not appear to be the case in the UK.


Well, that's how I buy audio equipment, which is not very often, usually having heard various brands over a period of years. If possible, I speak direct to the manufacturer and ask some pertinent questions, like what the design objective was for a product. That influenced my choice of server and turntable. Contrast with ASR's review I think of the very popular Mytek DAC, where there were things he did not like on measuring (clipping and an harmonic) but turned out to be design objectives, both of which could actually be switched off. So he rejected a very good DAC because he didn't understand the product. In fact the real benefit of the dealer events I go to is that the manufacturer/designer gets an opportunity to explain what their products are about and answer questions.

All I'm really describing is the traditional way of choosing audio equipment offline, not online.

Your straw-man (again) was "someone who doesn't purely rely on measured performance"

Almost no-one here (probably actually no-one) "purely relies on measured performance"

Repeating this straw-man over and over in different forms shows either you don't "get it" here, or you are deliberately trolling.

 

[Waxx]

I think amny here are far from the everyday reality of the average music lover. They don't know about how to measure stuff, they don't even know how to read the graphs and they don't want to learn it as they are often not technical at all. But they want good sound so the Sinad graph here is often used as reference altough it does not tell it all. And many know that and call me or people like me who can read it, preferable not linked to a brand or a shop (so more objective) to advice. It was like that I first heared about this site and was lurking to it 2 years before i became a member and started posting here.

But that kind of public needs advice from someone who can interpret the graphs, but also listen with an open mind to what they want. Many here push their agenda to everybody while it's not everybody's cup of tea. And that is what i can do right, i listen and try to find the right setup for their subjective preference, room and budget, but based on measurements and objective criteria. And it became a quiet big sidebussiness for me next to my main IT job in a very short time and without any advertising at all. I just got asked by someone who told someone else and so it went on. It seems that the kind of advice policy i give is rare in the market. I don't have golden ears or are the big specialist, but i can read the graphs, know enough about acoustics and electronics to understand the systems to a detailed level and can see what will workin a certain space and mainly, i can put my own subjective preference aside and listen to the customers to what they want, not what i want or what is in fashion. If you can do that, i can assure you that there is a big open gap in the hifi market waiting for someone to fill the gap (and I on my own can't do that). But you need to stay neutral of any brand, shop or so to get their trust, and you don't take commission on what they buy, you get a flat rate per advice (depending on the scope and the effort you need to do).

 

[DWI]

That's a very laudable approach and I hope my own audio dealer does much the same, but I appreciate I am probably lucky to get good advice. The dealer knows what I like, my taste in music, my house and listening room, and he never pushes specific brands or forces a sale. I've known him over 10 years and the shop 40 years. He has enough options for any budget, literally from $1k to $1m.

You look at SINAD on the last DAC review and it is basically the same - all items on the SINAD chart ranged from 120 to 123. These days, using OEM components it's really difficult to get bad measurements. That said, when I first heard the dCS Vivaldi when it was released in 2013 the sound had a transparency that absolutely blew me away and in my experience has never been bettered. OK, it costs $100k, not in my budget, but it does show what can be done.

It is often said that a little knowledge is more dangerous than none, and that's where I stand. I have no scientific background at all and I argue my case from that standpoint. It's not that I don't want to learn, my brain just can't take in the heavy technical stuff even if I tried. To others it must come naturally.

The dealer/consultant does need to understand the client. Being Belgian, you'll appreciate it's like hiring an interior designer who needs to understand if the client wants their house to look like Axel Vervoordt or have shiny white and gold taps. If you have the tools you can design a house yourself, but most people don't have the tools and need help. But that help had to know the client and often the client doesn't know what they want. I expect you have that quite a lot!

 

[Waxx]

That's a very laudable approach and I hope my own audio dealer does much the same, but I appreciate I am probably lucky to get good advice. The dealer knows what I like, my taste in music, my house and listening room, and he never pushes specific brands or forces a sale. I've known him over 10 years and the shop 40 years. He has enough options for any budget, literally from $1k to $1m.

You look at SINAD on the last DAC review and it is basically the same - all items on the SINAD chart ranged from 120 to 123. These days, using OEM components it's really difficult to get bad measurements. That said, when I first heard the dCS Vivaldi when it was released in 2013 the sound had a transparency that absolutely blew me away and in my experience has never been bettered. OK, it costs $100k, not in my budget, but it does show what can be done.

It is often said that a little knowledge is more dangerous than none, and that's where I stand. I have no scientific background at all and I argue my case from that standpoint. It's not that I don't want to learn, my brain just can't take in the heavy technical stuff even if I tried. To others it must come naturally.

The dealer/consultant does need to understand the client. Being Belgian, you'll appreciate it's like hiring an interior designer who needs to understand if the client wants their house to look like Axel Vervoordt or have shiny white and gold taps. If you have the tools you can design a house yourself, but most people don't have the tools and need help. But that help had to know the client and often the client doesn't know what they want. I expect you have that quite a lot!

Well, my last client was a very rich lord that moved to a new castle and loves music but has no clue about the technical side of it. He had a dCS, and the topping E30 (150€ down here) that we tested (it was my solicitation for the job to bring a cheap dac that was better) sounded better to his ears. The dCS is sold, and he got a bunch of Topping D90's now for his different systems. This is a guy that can spend whatever he wants and don't feel it. And the same counts for most products he bought after my advice. They cost a fraction of what he had in his old castle, and didn't like that much, but sounds way better. The E30 is now in the system of his daughter (who is 5) so she also can listen to good quality.

And even at that time you got better dac's for way less money, like those from Lavry Engineering, Prism Audio or Weiss. They were still very expensive, but less than a 10th of that price of the dCS and way better. Those were typically found in mastering studio's of that time (and still today).

 

[Mart68]

You look at SINAD on the last DAC review and it is basically the same - all items on the SINAD chart ranged from 120 to 123. These days, using OEM components it's really difficult to get bad measurements. That said, when I first heard the dCS Vivaldi when it was released in 2013 the sound had a transparency that absolutely blew me away and in my experience has never been bettered. OK, it costs $100k, not in my budget, but it does show what can be done.

It shows what can be done with a good marketing team, brand reputation, and a high price tag = expectation bias.

it's not doing anything a DAC you could buy for £200 is doing.
Someone might be aware of that and still buy the DCS - their informed decision and that's fine. Someone who bought it because they think they are getting better sound quality for the extra £99800 is being mugged off.

A little knowledge may be dangerous but having no knowledge at all (or more usually having what they think is knowledge but in fact isn't) can be pointlessly expensive.

 

[billyjoebob]

Almost no-one here (probably actually no-one) "purely relies on measured performance"

Other than measurements, there is only subjectively.
This thread has shown that is not likely happening here.
What else would one at ASR base a purchase on?

 

[MrOtto]

Oh no, Happier Than Ever is entirely intentional. That's not bad recording technique, that's an artistic choice, probably by Finneas and Billie.

They still need to cut that shit out. It's not pretty.

 

[DWI]

It shows what can be done with a good marketing team, brand reputation, and a high price tag = expectation bias.

it's not doing anything a DAC you could buy for £200 is doing.

You can stick your head in the sand and believe that if you want.

What I also learned from it is that with the highest quality data conversion, 16/44 PCM is quite sufficient, although before they even started to make consumer products they had pioneered high resolution PCM and DSD signal processing for professional recording.

 

[muslhead]

You can stick your head in the sand and believe that if you want.

What I also learned from it is that with the highest quality data conversion, 16/44 PCM is quite sufficient, although before they even started to make consumer products they had pioneered high resolution PCM and DSD signal processing for professional recording.

So, what you are saying is that anyone that disagrees with your "thinking" is sticking their head in the sand?

 

[Mart68]

You can stick your head in the sand and believe that if you want.

What I also learned from it is that with the highest quality data conversion, 16/44 PCM is quite sufficient, although before they even started to make consumer products they had pioneered high resolution PCM and DSD signal processing for professional recording.

A DAC is just converting a voltage representing digital data into a voltage representing an analogue waveform. In the context of today's technology that's trivial to do without screwing it up badly enough that you can hear it.

It really does not need a product to sell for a hundred grand to do that. It does not need to even be a grand, not unless you need additional features beyond the conversion, or for it to look fancy (the case is the expensive bit).

I've had plenty of auditions of the more expensive D to A kit. If I thought there was any benefit whatsoever to spending more on a DAC then I would. I love the idea that just forking out the cash and plugging in a new unit would transform my listening experience. Simple to do, money not an issue, it just doesn't work that way in reality, not once the inevitable placebo effect wears off.

yes 16/44.1 is quite sufficient, IMO it's actually overkill.

 

[DWI]

So, what you are saying is that anyone that disagrees with your "thinking" is sticking their head in the sand?

I'm saying that thinking £200 will get you the best possible digital converter is sticking your head in the sand.

I really find DACs very boring. Since moving on from CD 13 years ago I've only owned one standalone DAC, one streamer/DAC and now a streamer/DAC/amplifier. I have heard lots of digital systems and nothing ever sounded as sonically transparent as dCS Vivaldi, except other dCS units. I don't know how or why, it just tells me how they do data conversion, which is entirely proprietary, sounds better than anything else. I don't own dCS, the experience just left an indelible mark on my brain and I can remember it like yesterday, even though it was 9 years ago. It was not a one off as dCS transports and converters are often used by dealers for demonstrations.

dCS started out designing A/D convertors and other signal converters for military use. Having some commercial experience of that type of equipment, in comparison their consumer products are quite cheap!

 

[antcollinet]

Other than measurements, there is only subjectively.
This thread has shown that is not likely happening here.
What else would one at ASR base a purchase on?

Features, service, reputation, relationship with supplier, robustness or perceived robustness. Appearance, feel, quality, user interface, and.... and.... and.... And probably a listen or two. Many here have said they use measurements to narrow down the field for further (yes) subjective evaluation. Because once you have a choice of many devices with audibly equal measurements, then the purchase decision must be based on other stuff.

 

[DWI]

Features, service, reputation, relationship with supplier, robustness or perceived robustness. Appearance, feel, quality, user interface, and.... and.... and.... And probably a listen or two. Many here have said they use measurements to narrow down the field for further (yes) subjective evaluation. Because once you have a choice of many devices with audibly equal measurements, then the purchase decision must be based on other stuff.

When one of my kids went to Uni, on the first day we popped into Richer Sounds and bought a cheap system, including a Denon DAC/pre/amp reduced from £400 to £200 as it was a shelf unit. It broke a few months later. To my amazement, they sent it off and got it repaired, even delivered it back. Still have it somewhere. I was a customer before, but I now go to them whenever possible. It is remarkable that it is still possible to do budget retail consumer products so well.

 

[pkane]

The impression here is that if you don't follow the ASR mantra you are an audiophile or audiofool. You're in or out.

I consider myself an objectivist and an audiophile and a music lover. Am I in or out?