PS Audio FR30 speakers

[YSC]

Well, I am a speaker designer, performing musician and nothing more but I think that the comment about hate watching still stands. If you want to read every daily blog post, youtube video (or positive product review about a new product category for the company) and make negative comments, it's your life and "to each his own". There are literally hundreds of audio companies out there and I hope you can direct more attention to things that you actually enjoy and find pleasure in.

I am not "trying to test". In this case, there is a difference between the many thousands of measurements (and listening work) that was done in development and the lab measurements for publishing a more detailed technical datasheet for the production unit on the website.

I won't be responding further to any comments that you post here or elsewhere (on PS blogs or forums) because you clearly have an "ax to grind" and there is no use in trying to comment on the design process or product performance decisions or trade-offs.

I don’t get the hate speech notion of things, what I see more here is the negative on the only published measurement with the huge peaks and nulls, which by what most of lurkers here is a bad thing on its own. For the side of unable to afford I can’t agree as I owned a cayman GT4 which is a few times more expensive than this.

Back to the speaker, appearance and finishing only I would say the final design is a lot better than the prototype when Paul announced the project, and I personally really like how AMT and ribbon tweeters look, but after all for me personally the ultimate thing is how it performs. I am glad you are doing a lab measurement and will publish the results when it’s available. It’s good if say we have a really good off axis FR and nice sound power/distortion matric. Which means in room we don’t need to specially tilt them towards the LP.

But as far as own experience goes, such speakers generally have a nice MLP sound but changes quite rapidly when the MLP is a 3 seat sofa for family. Where flat on axis and controlled directivity is my preference.

Just to say what I personally feels here: if you have a really great measurement graph here, you get tons of praise, if you get there with some potential drawback, say like topping pre90/A90 I forgot have really low input impedance which is not great for high output impedance dacs, ppl like me would question their design choice for the extra SINAD over practical system matching.

And if you have a bad/ put it more politely, subpar measurement initially, you get the mocking or bad comments, if subsequent having some nice and complete measurement, say in FR30, if the listening window curve is really flat and nice with low distortion, you will get the deserved recognition by then and get more bad comment if it isn’t.

 

[Killingbeans]

The lift is useless in managing stairs and that is where the Salon 2 is located (in a loft upstairs). It is much easier to test a speaker that is shipped to me than testing Salon 2 because my measurement lab is where delivery is made.

Maybe the next ASR equipment investment shold be in something like this :

 

[YSC]

Maybe the next ASR equipment investment shold be in something like this :

Well, from his videos I am pretty sure Amirm isn’t far from Arnold Schwarzenegger or Dwayne Johnson, so maybe invest in some gym equipment and the problem is gone forever

 

[DWI]

@retro
Greg Timbers is an Ex-JBL Engineer, responsible for the Everest, Studio 5XX series, and many more lines of speakers from JBL.
https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/

Generally focused more on dynamics in his designs than wide off-axis dispersion... Hence the horns and big woofers. Instead of the microscopic midranges and tweeters Revel uses.

In the interview linked, he mentions that dynamics, to him, are essential to achieve a lifelike reproduction of sound.

Sincerely,
A JBL Horn fanboy

It sounds like Greg Timbers. Have you not read some of the reviews of various JBL horn speakers where there is much discussion about how they are sometimes more pleasing to listen to than their on-axis response might suggest? It's not something nobody here is aware can happen. I'm not sure what that comment has to do with this speaker though, as those speakers generally have higher than normal sensitivity and very well controlled directivity.

You are almost correct, it's a chap called Jim Garrett, a Senior Director of Harman, replying to Stereophile's review of the JBL4367 studio monitor.

As for audio magazines always doing glowing reviews, these JBL speakers were on the front cover, but the review was mixed. It is impossible to summarise a very detailed review and set of measurements, but they seemed to think they were a technically superb (pretty faultless) and good value speaker with many merits, but the reviewer did not particularly like listening to them. He explains why. It seems a good review to me because it tells you what you are getting and if that's what you like, go and listen to them. What he said remind me of the first time I heard a big pair of ATC.

 

[Purité Audio]

They just hadn’t been ‘burnt in’ after 300 hours everything was howdy doody!
Maybe Paul Miller didn’t burn these in!
Keith

 

[DWI]

Well, I'll play armchair psychologist here and say that I've seen a lot of mock outrage or general animous towards very expensive things. I understand the championing of "best value" and "bang for buck" components and Amir have done an awesome job with that here with a variety of products (starting with the chinese DACs). Especially for those entering to hobby, it's a great resource.

But why the hate about something that you will likely never be in the market for or even try to experience? I think that it is at least in part, sour grapes, as the Aesop fable goes. Because they are out of reach, they must be sour.

I have been reading about the phenomenon of "hate watching". Why do people repeatedly watch something they dislike so they can belittle and ridicule it? One thought is that they are channeling and releasing negativity from other parts of life (bad mood, insecurities, other things).

That being said, there are some "sham" audiophile products that give other more legitimate attempts at the high-end designs and you'll see some straw man arguments about these in more legitimate discussions about other stuff.

It's also not all about certain kinds of performance for everyone. There is a level of functional art in products and reasons why someone might lust after porche or ferrari instead of a tesla or corvette that might be better in some performance metrics. Even though I will never own any of those (and drive an inexpensive SUV), I enjoy the fact that they exists and seeing what new supercar someone comes out with. The same thing goes for a D'Agostino amplifier for me.

I understand that you're passionate about this hobby and promoting the things that you believe in and trying to root out what's better than this or that but it seems like you choose to spend a lot of time on the PS user forum and here "hate watching" and I don't really get it.

Chris, just to remind you of Amir's conclusion the last time he reviewed a PS Audio product (his bold italics, not mine, he had a point to make):

"Bottom line is that at worst, PS Audio P12 objectively degrades the performance of some audio products if you use the Zone D outlet. If you use the other zones, it simply doesn't do anything useful than waste some power, take up space, and cost you a lot of money. Distortion, noise, dynamic and average power of all tested products remains the same as not using P12. This is what the data shows and after two weeks of waiting, nothing has been presented from PS Audio or anyone else for that matter, to indicate otherwise."

Saying a $6,000 product does nothing is like throwing meat to the lions around here and I doubt will not be forgotten. It ended up with multiple threads from Amir and people hoping for the day PS Audio goes down in flames. I chipped in because I owned a regenerator and know what it can do - in certain systems. That it has positive impact in some systems and not in others makes a mockery of isolated tests of power products that are designed as part of a power system.

It doesn't help that PS Audio's long-term strength is power products and Amir seems to have a prejudice against them as a class of products generally. He first concluded on the P12:
"The rest of the tests show why none of these power devices are capable of improving the output of our audio devices."
That's pretty categoric and denies the legitimacy of PS Audio's core business.

Contrast with a lot of constructive negative criticism of the AN3/FR30 on PS Audio over the years, the end result is clearly an excellent product.

I expect Stereophile will do a full review with measurements in due course and certainly it would be good to see your own measurements on the PS Audio website. They will of course get much wider readership by people who might actually buy the speaker. I guarantee the review will be extensively analysed here.

The biggest issue is possibly that every manufacturer, designer, reviewer, vendor or owner of loudspeakers (professional and consumer) that I have ever spoken to have believed in the importance of critical listening in the design and evaluation. Here that is almost considered heresy and believing in the importance of listening attracts hate, even when it comes from designers of some of the world's leading studio monitors.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the hate, it's the internet, the only person who will know if it has any effect is Paul from his regenerator sales figures.

I can see the merit for engaging in technical discussions here, but I can't see any positive reason for a review of speakers that doesn't involve a proper set-up and extended listening together with measurements, and because I expect that is what your customers (like me) would want. Anyway, there will always be complaints about the price and some pro monitor company will always make something better and cheaper.

I see your FR30 are now being used by PS Audio as Octave monitors. That's a tough act. I've never been happy with over-analytical monitors for home use. One day a genius loudspeaker designer will come along and put a toggle switch on the back panel that has two settings, "Studio" and "Home". Quite what that switch will do, I have no idea, but it would solve a lot of arguments.

 

[FrantzM]

Chris, just to remind you of Amir's conclusion the last time he reviewed a PS Audio product (his bold italics, not mine, he had a point to make):

"Bottom line is that at worst, PS Audio P12 objectively degrades the performance of some audio products if you use the Zone D outlet. If you use the other zones, it simply doesn't do anything useful than waste some power, take up space, and cost you a lot of money. Distortion, noise, dynamic and average power of all tested products remains the same as not using P12. This is what the data shows and after two weeks of waiting, nothing has been presented from PS Audio or anyone else for that matter, to indicate otherwise."

Saying a $6,000 product does nothing is like throwing meat to the lions around here and I doubt will not be forgotten. It ended up with multiple threads from Amir and people hoping for the day PS Audio goes down in flames. I chipped in because I owned a regenerator and know what it can do - in certain systems. That it has positive impact in some systems and not in others makes a mockery of isolated tests of power products that are designed as part of a power system.

It doesn't help that PS Audio's long-term strength is power products and Amir seems to have a prejudice against them as a class of products generally. He first concluded on the P12:
"The rest of the tests show why none of these power devices are capable of improving the output of our audio devices."
That's pretty categoric and denies the legitimacy of PS Audio's core business.

Contrast with a lot of constructive negative criticism of the AN3/FR30 on PS Audio over the years, the end result is clearly an excellent product.

I expect Stereophile will do a full review with measurements in due course and certainly it would be good to see your own measurements on the PS Audio website. They will of course get much wider readership by people who might actually buy the speaker. I guarantee the review will be extensively analysed here.

The biggest issue is possibly that every manufacturer, designer, reviewer, vendor or owner of loudspeakers (professional and consumer) that I have ever spoken to have believed in the importance of critical listening in the design and evaluation. Here that is almost considered heresy and believing in the importance of listening attracts hate, even when it comes from designers of some of the world's leading studio monitors.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the hate, it's the internet, the only person who will know if it has any effect is Paul from his regenerator sales figures.

I can see the merit for engaging in technical discussions here, but I can't see any positive reason for a review of speakers that doesn't involve a proper set-up and extended listening together with measurements, and because I expect that is what your customers (like me) would want. Anyway, there will always be complaints about the price and some pro monitor company will always make something better and cheaper.

I see your FR30 are now being used by PS Audio as Octave monitors. That's a tough act. I've never been happy with over-analytical monitors for home use. One day a genius loudspeaker designer will come along and put a toggle switch on the back panel that has two settings, "Studio" and "Home". Quite what that switch will do, I have no idea, but it would solve a lot of arguments.

A system is characterized by an input and an output. If a system does not alter the output in some positive ways or not at all, it is fair, just and equitable to term "useless" ...or in this case as "doing nothing", regardless of price. Following your logic, stating , a fact BTW, that most any mechanical Rolex is not better in time telling than a Quartz Casio, would be "throwing meat to the lions"? Facts, not opinion. The product was tested and the results didn't provide anything that could be constructed as altering in a positive fashion the output o even behavior of an audio component. Those are facts. Unless magic or up to now unbeknownst physical properties, that escape a lowly Audio Analyzer, in which case, I would suggest to PS Audio to go for a different market, that of Research Facilities such as the CERN... I am sure their budget for such items, dwarfs that of all PS Audio current and past owners... put together.

Now let's talk about listening sessions. Based on what we know now and perhaps knew all along, our mind plays some interesting tricks on our perceptions. Shouldn't we thus, look, search for methods that allow us to be less influenced by our minds' trickeries? That is what measurements bring. If it plays and plays differently, then the differences are measurable. Let's, please, let's abandon the notion of our ears being more sensible than instruments. They're not, especially those belonging to people over 40 years which is likely the market segment (to be fooled into) to acquire these things.. Sorry I couldn't resist .
We could continue paragraph per paragraph, in passing the notion of "proper setup" what is that in scientific term? Nice shiny cryogenically treated speaker stand or the fact that a known input should produce a known output? Which by the way is always measurable., if it exists?

And why would Octave becomes a metric.. Does the fact that Raphael Nadal wore a $1,050,000.oo Richard Mille watch makes that particular watch better at telling time than a $150.oo Casio G-shock? No. Measurements will tell us. Nothing else.

Peace

 

[YSC]

Chris, just to remind you of Amir's conclusion the last time he reviewed a PS Audio product (his bold italics, not mine, he had a point to make):

"Bottom line is that at worst, PS Audio P12 objectively degrades the performance of some audio products if you use the Zone D outlet. If you use the other zones, it simply doesn't do anything useful than waste some power, take up space, and cost you a lot of money. Distortion, noise, dynamic and average power of all tested products remains the same as not using P12. This is what the data shows and after two weeks of waiting, nothing has been presented from PS Audio or anyone else for that matter, to indicate otherwise."

Saying a $6,000 product does nothing is like throwing meat to the lions around here and I doubt will not be forgotten. It ended up with multiple threads from Amir and people hoping for the day PS Audio goes down in flames. I chipped in because I owned a regenerator and know what it can do - in certain systems. That it has positive impact in some systems and not in others makes a mockery of isolated tests of power products that are designed as part of a power system.

It doesn't help that PS Audio's long-term strength is power products and Amir seems to have a prejudice against them as a class of products generally. He first concluded on the P12:
"The rest of the tests show why none of these power devices are capable of improving the output of our audio devices."
That's pretty categoric and denies the legitimacy of PS Audio's core business.

Contrast with a lot of constructive negative criticism of the AN3/FR30 on PS Audio over the years, the end result is clearly an excellent product.

I expect Stereophile will do a full review with measurements in due course and certainly it would be good to see your own measurements on the PS Audio website. They will of course get much wider readership by people who might actually buy the speaker. I guarantee the review will be extensively analysed here.

The biggest issue is possibly that every manufacturer, designer, reviewer, vendor or owner of loudspeakers (professional and consumer) that I have ever spoken to have believed in the importance of critical listening in the design and evaluation. Here that is almost considered heresy and believing in the importance of listening attracts hate, even when it comes from designers of some of the world's leading studio monitors.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the hate, it's the internet, the only person who will know if it has any effect is Paul from his regenerator sales figures.

I can see the merit for engaging in technical discussions here, but I can't see any positive reason for a review of speakers that doesn't involve a proper set-up and extended listening together with measurements, and because I expect that is what your customers (like me) would want. Anyway, there will always be complaints about the price and some pro monitor company will always make something better and cheaper.

I see your FR30 are now being used by PS Audio as Octave monitors. That's a tough act. I've never been happy with over-analytical monitors for home use. One day a genius loudspeaker designer will come along and put a toggle switch on the back panel that has two settings, "Studio" and "Home". Quite what that switch will do, I have no idea, but it would solve a lot of arguments.

It’s quite a long defend of a brand. But step aside of the speaker here a de rail a bit: when it’s designed as to improve as a part of a system, may I ask if anything measured objectively, that a system with the said component added in, have any effect at all? Let’s say a speaker amp dac with and without the power regenerator, using whatever outlet you are using? For power isolator or such products in my own knowledge there is absolutely nothing showing that in any system, putting them in does anything. I do think a lot of ppl here want to see any proof other than subjective tests

 

[CtheArgie]

The irony is that I discovered ASR while trying to replace an amp that died and was looking at one of the Stellas from PS Audio. I decided to investigate more and came upon this site. I was just shocked. Surprised, excited, confused. Was I being conned for somany years? Why did so many people want to smoothly BS? But then, I realized that humans fall for stories all the time. I discovered Kahneman's work, and rediscovered what I have learnt in business school from giants like Paul Green who "invented" conjoint analysis and Russ Ackoff who discovered through double blind tasting of beers the psychology of choice. You start putting things together and realize what happened. People believe that lasers from out of space initiate fires in California, they believe the moon landing was faked, that UV light up yours can cure COVID, that extraterrestrials will kidnap you and probe you through the end of your GI system. All sorts of things. We are bound to believe nonsense. How do we stop it?

We can't do it all, but attempting to be more rational helps. To be more objective and clear eyed.

So with PS, I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt. They were part of my path for years. ASRs review of the Noise Harvester, plus the regenerator issue made it all stop. Their own forums made me realize I was dealing with Scientology Audio.

I don't hate expensive stuff. I don't hate people that enjoy the expensive audio. I just have bewildering amusement at their ability to convince themselves. Most people that drive Ferraris, McLarens or Lambos don't argue they have the best car. They have a status symbol that is magnificent to drive, that is pretty. They may argue technicalities.

I think we have to realize that some people "LIKE" the sound they get and it is not about getting a better facsimile of the recording. I reached a point that with my system I know I can get better, but I suspend disbelief and enjoy what I get. I am amazed at the advances of DACs, amp and powered speakers that adjust to the rooms. This was probably the biggest personal disappointment with the PS speaker. They designed a car with stick shift and a carburetor! And then they hid stuff rom you.

I learnt here to admire companies like Schiit that took criticism and implemented changes in their work. Or Magico, which are in the luxury domain, but measure the speakers they make. Or Arundal that are "science based". I'll give my money to those companies in the future. There is more, like D&D, Kii, you know the type. And I have to walk away from the Snake Oil industry. Completely. I am no Don Quijote.

 

[Killingbeans]

Saying a $6,000 product does nothing is like throwing meat to the lions around here and I doubt will not be forgotten. It ended up with multiple threads from Amir and people hoping for the day PS Audio goes down in flames.

I have no hunger for meat, and I feel no resentment towards PS Audio, but if a $6000 product turns out to do nothing useful, it deserves ridicule, no matter who designed it.

This hobby gets the emotions going. Both when people demonize the companies that are hooked on their own kool-aid, and when they scramble to justify the studity of the situation those companies have put themselves in.

I chipped in because I owned a regenerator and know what it can do - in certain systems.

I would like to ask how you define 'know' in this particular instance, but I'm afraid to do so

 

[DWI]

It’s quite a long defend of a brand. But step aside of the speaker here a de rail a bit: when it’s designed as to improve as a part of a system, may I ask if anything measured objectively, that a system with the said component added in, have any effect at all? Let’s say a speaker amp dac with and without the power regenerator, using whatever outlet you are using? For power isolator or such products in my own knowledge there is absolutely nothing showing that in any system, putting them in does anything. I do think a lot of ppl here want to see any proof other than subjective tests

It was being used in a system that included a 300B-XLS SET amplifier. I changed to less sensitive speakers in 2015 resulting in a change to a more powerful amplifier (which I still use), the regenerator ceased to be of benefit in the new system so I sold it.

I don't feel any need to prove anything to anyone as I was a happy user for several years. Telling someone they didn't experience something they did is a bit like telling them their wife is ugly. They are unlikely to believe you and from that point onwards are quite likely to treat you with complete contempt.

Whilst he's entitled to his opinion, that's pretty much what Amir did with the P12, so expecting a response from PS Audio was a bit optimistic.

 

[Purité Audio]

Not if their wife really is ugly.
Keith

 

[ahofer]

I applaud Chris for coming here and engaging with the ASR audience, who mostly share an attachment to certain measurement outcomes. I also was pleased to see his references to Toole/Olive's work - something many manufacturers won't even acknowledge. That research might not be the end-all, but one ought to build from it, not ignore it.

We really ought to be in a place where kilobuck audio manufacturers demonstrate how their products are preferred and how they have refuted or built upon existing research to achieve that result. They ought to publish a standard suite of measurements, supplemented with measurements that demonstrate their contributions to the research. And they ought to sponsor controlled listening tests to demonstrate their products' superiority or learn from the process.

Instead we get stories of folksy rebels and exotic materials, with little or no contribution to the science of audio preference. Then we are asked 1) to buy hugely expensive equipment that either weighs too much or needs to burn-in such that it cannot reasonably be compared to anything else in one's listening room with any reasonable amount of time and effort, 2) to ignore what current audio and psycho-acoustic research clearly indicates in favor of these marketing stories and 3) believe reviews from publications that have never really panned anything and dress up their reviews in gobbledygook.

 

[Killingbeans]

Telling someone they didn't experience something they did is a bit like telling them their wife is ugly.

No. That's taking things personally.

It's been underlined again and again here on ASR: Perceptual bias has nothing to do with your skills or your intelligence. It's an integral part of being human, and being susceptible to its effects does not belittle you in any way.

 

[ahofer]

not clicking on 'show ignored content', not clicking on 'show ignored content'....

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

not clicking on 'show ignored content', not clicking on 'show ignored content'....

Step away from the keyboard and keep your hands where we can see them.

 

[617]

Well, I am a speaker designer, performing musician and nothing more but I think that the comment about hate watching still stands. If you want to read every daily blog post, youtube video (or positive product review about a new product category for the company) and make negative comments, it's your life and "to each his own". There are literally hundreds of audio companies out there and I hope you can direct more attention to things that you actually enjoy and find pleasure in.

I am not "trying to test". In this case, there is a difference between the many thousands of measurements (and listening work) that was done in development and the lab measurements for publishing a more detailed technical datasheet for the production unit on the website.

I won't be responding further to any comments that you post here or elsewhere (on PS blogs or forums) because you clearly have an "ax to grind" and there is no use in trying to comment on the design process or product performance decisions or trade-offs.

Chris, I'm curious what speakers you designed prior to PS Audio? The PS Audio speaker being discussed here is a pretty serious statement piece with some interesting design decisions. I suspect, knowing what little I know about Paul, that some of the design choices (huge, use of planar midrange) came from PS audio, but making a modern high performance speaker with those features is not that easy. It's a pretty impressive first project, so I'd be curious how they chose you to design it.

 

[DWI]

The irony is that I discovered ASR while trying to replace an amp that died and was looking at one of the Stellas from PS Audio. I decided to investigate more and came upon this site. I was just shocked. Surprised, excited, confused. Was I being conned for somany years? Why did so many people want to smoothly BS? But then, I realized that humans fall for stories all the time. I discovered Kahneman's work, and rediscovered what I have learnt in business school from giants like Paul Green who "invented" conjoint analysis and Russ Ackoff who discovered through double blind tasting of beers the psychology of choice. You start putting things together and realize what happened. People believe that lasers from out of space initiate fires in California, they believe the moon landing was faked, that UV light up yours can cure COVID, that extraterrestrials will kidnap you and probe you through the end of your GI system. All sorts of things. We are bound to believe nonsense. How do we stop it?

We can't do it all, but attempting to be more rational helps. To be more objective and clear eyed.

So with PS, I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt. They were part of my path for years. ASRs review of the Noise Harvester, plus the regenerator issue made it all stop. Their own forums made me realize I was dealing with Scientology Audio.

I don't hate expensive stuff. I don't hate people that enjoy the expensive audio. I just have bewildering amusement at their ability to convince themselves. Most people that drive Ferraris, McLarens or Lambos don't argue they have the best car. They have a status symbol that is magnificent to drive, that is pretty. They may argue technicalities.

I think we have to realize that some people "LIKE" the sound they get and it is not about getting a better facsimile of the recording. I reached a point that with my system I know I can get better, but I suspend disbelief and enjoy what I get. I am amazed at the advances of DACs, amp and powered speakers that adjust to the rooms. This was probably the biggest personal disappointment with the PS speaker. They designed a car with stick shift and a carburetor! And then they hid stuff rom you.

I learnt here to admire companies like Schiit that took criticism and implemented changes in their work. Or Magico, which are in the luxury domain, but measure the speakers they make. Or Arundal that are "science based". I'll give my money to those companies in the future. There is more, like D&D, Kii, you know the type. And I have to walk away from the Snake Oil industry. Completely. I am no Don Quijote.

A lot of the criticism is aimed at what you call "smoothly BS" and audio marketing generally.

I bought three PS Audio components over a period of years when it was a largely unknown brand in the UK and I'd never looked at their marketing. I met their UK distributor at a show and bought an ex-demo phono stage that had just been discontinued. It was pretty good for the money. I chose one of their DACs after having four DACs at home on loan, although after about 3 or 4 years reverted to an integrated streaming unit. I came across the regenerator at the house of the man who made my SET amplifier. I'd never even heard of regenerators.

The PS Audio FR-30 speakers are in part the result of a huge amount of feedback and criticism on the PS Audio forum (as mentioned in the HFN&RR review) and they went back to the drawing board and started from scratch on several occasions. @Chris Brunhaver has made it clear he has done extensive measurements and will being doing, and publishing, a lot more.

The consumer market is dominated by passive speakers, so making a passive speaker makes a lot of sense. There was a lot of thought to making the earlier iterations active. There are more than enough ways of implementing DSP and room correction outside of the speakers, if that's what you want to do.

I have a more favourable view of the consumer audio industry. Sure, there are some rubbish products, but there is a lot of rubbish everywhere. I have a fairly expensive (not crazy expensive) integrated unit, it was originally fabricated in 2010, was upgraded in 2016 when I bought it and then had further software upgrades like Roon Ready. Chris refers to an obsession here with price, but I've used plenty of units for a decade or more and expect to have my current integrated unit at least 15 years. The price of a unit is irrelevant if you don't know anything about reliability and support. The only component failure I had in 35 years was an amplifier, the manufacturer did a free repair (including International shipping) after 8 years and in the end I had it 12 years. A system that costs $5k-$10k and lasts 15 years with a resale value to me is very good value.

I agree that you have to be happy with what you have and not lust after new products. That's not the fault of the industry, that's consumers not being able to control themselves.

 

[DWI]

A system is characterized by an input and an output. If a system does alter the ouput in some positive ways ofr not at all, it is fair, just and equitable to term "useless" ...or in this case as "doing nothing", regardless of price. Following your logic, stating , a fact BTW, NTW, that most any mechanical Rolex is not better in time telling than a Quartz Casio, would be "throwing meat to the lions"? Facts, not opinion. The product was tested and the results didn't provide anything that could be constructed as altering in a positive fashion the output o even behavior of an audio component. Those are facts. Unless magic or up to now unbeknownst, physical properties that escapes a lowly Audio Anayzer, in which case, i would suggest to PS Audio to go for a different market, that of Research Facilities such as the CERN... I am sure their budget for such items, dwarfs that of all PS Audio current and past owners... put together.

Now let's talk about listening sessions. Based on what we know now and perhaps knew all along, our mind plays some interesting tricks on our perceptions. Shouldn't we thus, look, search for methods that allow us to be less influenced by our minds' trickeries? That is what measurements bring. If it plays and plays differently, then the differences are measurable. Let's, please, let's abandon the notion of our ears being more sensible than instruments. They're not, especially those belonging to people over 40 years which is likely the market segment (to be fooled into) to acquire these things.. Sorry I couldn't resist .
We could continue paragraph per paragraph, in passing the notion of "proper setup" what is that in scientific term? Nice shiny cryogenically treated speaker stand or the fact that a known input should produce a known output? Which by the way is always measurable., if it exists?

And why would Octave becomes a metric.. Does the fact that Raphael Nadal wore a $1,050,000.oo Richard Mille watch makes that particular watch better at telling time than a $150.oo Casio G-shock? No. Measurements will tell us. Nothing else.

Peace

I think we've been here before in numerous PS Audio threads and the leading monitor designers stressing the importance of listening evaluation in speaker design, even with Klippel and many other design tools and facilities at their disposal.

 

[Cbdb2]

I watched parts of 2 or 3 videos from BSaudio and that was enough to know Paul is a moron or a liar, probably both. He knows zero real electronics and his "tests" are ridiculous. Do yourself a favour and ignore everything he says.