Balanced DAC if source is TV?

[chang]

I'll be running my system from a Roku TV for both shows and music (spotify). Is there enough difference to justify buying a balanced vs unbalanced dac in this situation?

Set up would be QA 3020, Aiyima A07 and either Topping E30 or E50... with a sub in the future

 

[DVDdoug]

Balanced connections are mostly about reducing noise pick-up so if you've got a noise issue from the connections (or ground loop noise) it will help no matter what the source. And if you don't have a noise problem it won't make any difference no matter the source.

 

[chang]

Balanced connections are mostly about reducing noise pick-up so if you've got a noise issue from the connections (or ground loop noise) it will help no matter what the source. And if you don't have a noise problem it won't make any difference no matter the source.

Thanks for the feedback

How exactly do I figure that out? (Is it as easy as listening for it). Think upgrading my soundbar to this system would cause more noise?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Is there enough difference to justify buying a balanced vs unbalanced dac in this situation?

Set up would be QA 3020, Aiyima A07 and either Topping E30 or E50

There's no point for balanced DAC when your amp does not have any balanced inputs anyway...

 

[Keened]

The question is malformed, if you are sending a signal from your TV to a DAC it should be a digital signal, not an analog one. The DAC then can have an unbalanced out.

TV -> Toslink (optical so no ground loops) -> Topping D10 (whichever iteration is the latest) -> DSP via USB or Amplifier via the balanced out.

 

[chang]

There's no point for balanced DAC when your amp does not have any balanced inputs anyway...

Was wondering about that. I'm new to this, so still working through it. Thanks

 

[chang]

The question is malformed, if you are sending a signal from your TV to a DAC it should be a digital signal, not an analog one. The DAC then can have an unbalanced out.

TV -> Toslink (optical so no ground loops) -> Topping D10 (whichever iteration is the latest) -> DSP via USB or Amplifier via the balanced out.

Thank you for simplifying that. Confused on running balanced if both dac and amp aren't balanced? You suggesting running a dsp out of the amp?

 

[Keened]

Thank you for simplifying that. Confused on running balanced if both dac and amp aren't balanced? You suggesting running a dsp out of the amp?

Sorry slipped between the two.

You will only benefit from a balanced connection if both the source (DAC) and the amplifier are balanced. Balanced DACs can be made to a higher standard, but it's not causative so much as correlative. The same is true of 'balanced' amplifiers which can be truly balanced internally ($$$ since you have to double all of the components) or pseudo-balanced where it will accept a balanced signal in for the purposes of grounding but amplifies in a single end fashion. There are also differential balanced amplifiers where they both push and pull on the same single wave form, which increases the power efficiency but also introduces 2 places for distortion to be introduced and tend to measure a little worse).

Balanced also uses a higher voltage so it's easier to pull the signal from the background noise and can run further.

If you have an unbalanced amp there is no benefit in using a balanced signal through an adapter, but there is also no harm either.

The Topping D10 can act as a TOS in and USB out IIRC, so you could use that to feed an RPI4 and run Camilla DSP on the signal and then either feed it to another D10 or get a DAC hat for the PI to feed the amplifier.

I do highly suggest using DSP. Both in general as it is the cheapest and biggest sound upgrade most people can do, and also because you generally need that if you are going to integrate a subwoofer and highpass the mains.

If you don't need it right this minute I'd say wait for the MiniDSP Flex (RCA edition) to come back into stock and use that instead.

 

[chang]

Sorry slipped between the two.

You will only benefit from a balanced connection if both the source (DAC) and the amplifier are balanced. Balanced DACs can be made to a higher standard, but it's not causative so much as correlative. The same is true of 'balanced' amplifiers which can be truly balanced internally ($$$ since you have to double all of the components) or pseudo-balanced where it will accept a balanced signal in for the purposes of grounding but amplifies in a single end fashion. There are also differential balanced amplifiers where they both push and pull on the same single wave form, which increases the power efficiency but also introduces 2 places for distortion to be introduced and tend to measure a little worse).

Balanced also uses a higher voltage so it's easier to pull the signal from the background noise and can run further.

If you have an unbalanced amp there is no benefit in using a balanced signal through an adapter, but there is also no harm either.

The Topping D10 can act as a TOS in and USB out IIRC, so you could use that to feed an RPI4 and run Camilla DSP on the signal and then either feed it to another D10 or get a DAC hat for the PI to feed the amplifier.

I do highly suggest using DSP. Both in general as it is the cheapest and biggest sound upgrade most people can do, and also because you generally need that if you are going to integrate a subwoofer and highpass the mains.

If you don't need it right this minute I'd say wait for the MiniDSP Flex (RCA edition) to come back into stock and use that instead.

Sounds like I should just stick to unbalanced haha.

Interesting, since I haven't run across much dsp talk on this forum. I'm more familiar with the car audio world where dsp is much more common.

Does the Flex double as a dsp and dac?

 

[Keened]

Sounds like I should just stick to unbalanced haha.

Interesting, since I haven't run across much dsp talk on this forum. I'm more familiar with the car audio world where dsp is much more common.

Does the Flex double as a dsp and dac?

It's kind of understood to be a given if it can be transparently introduced. It's just that until the Flex came along the best that most people could do without either buying a full on SHD (good, but big with a built in streamer not everyone needed) or the Studio (no main out DAC and more troublesome to use subwoofers with since you now have to synchronize two separate DACs) was the 2x4HD which was great for its time but hadn't grown with the times

So you would see a lot of pro gear like the RME ADI ($$$) or people doing it directly on their streamer first.

There really isn't a term for what the Flex is, some have floated the term Digital Pre-Amp which is mostly right. But it also is a DAC so I would want to call it an 'Integrated DAC'...but that term is ambiguous since Integrated means 'powered' in the stereo world in general and the term in general could just as easily mean a DAC with an integrated streamer. It's also not a Pre-Pro since it can't decode multi-channel.

I think the term Integrated Digital Pre-Amp would probably be the most correct since it integrated both (D)SP and DAC capabilities together, has multiple (digital) input selection, controls the volume (in the digital domain), and puts out an analog signal at a strong standard line level voltage (meaning the integration can't be a poweramp.

But that's a mouthful.

 

[chang]

It's kind of understood to be a given if it can be transparently introduced. It's just that until the Flex came along the best that most people could do without either buying a full on SHD (good, but big with a built in streamer not everyone needed) or the Studio (no main out DAC and more troublesome to use subwoofers with since you now have to synchronize two separate DACs) was the 2x4HD which was great for its time but hadn't grown with the times

So you would see a lot of pro gear like the RME ADI ($$$) or people doing it directly on their streamer first.

There really isn't a term for what the Flex is, some have floated the term Digital Pre-Amp which is mostly right. But it also is a DAC so I would want to call it an 'Integrated DAC'...but that term is ambiguous since Integrated means 'powered' in the stereo world in general and the term in general could just as easily mean a DAC with an integrated streamer. It's also not a Pre-Pro since it can't decode multi-channel.

I think the term Integrated Digital Pre-Amp would probably be the most correct since it integrated both (D)SP and DAC capabilities together, has multiple (digital) input selection, controls the volume (in the digital domain), and puts out an analog signal at a strong standard line level voltage (meaning the integration can't be a poweramp.

But that's a mouthful.

That's a lot to digest. I think this is where I'll pull back before going down the audio rabbit hole.

I'd like to keep things "simple" for now with a basic setup and go from there.

Would you mind sharing some equipment pairing advice?

After some researching, I've landed on the Aiyima A07, Topping E30 or E50 (I like these models since they don't have Bluetooth and come with remotes), and Q Acoustics 3020. In the future I'll probably look to add a sub... and maybe this is when I could incorporate the dsp?

How does that sound in layman's terms?

 

[Keened]

That's a lot to digest. I think this is where I'll pull back before going down the audio rabbit hole.

I'd like to keep things "simple" for now with a basic setup and go from there.

Would you mind sharing some equipment pairing advice?

After some researching, I've landed on the Aiyima A07, Topping E30 or E50 (I like these models since they don't have Bluetooth and come with remotes), and Q Acoustics 3020. In the future I'll probably look to add a sub... and maybe this is when I could incorporate the dsp?

How does that sound in layman's terms?

The issue with incorporating a sub is that generally you want to high pass the mains and low pass the subwoofer signal so neither component is trying to play in it's worse range, set a time delay if the subwoofer isn't equidistant from the listener to the mains (e.g. the subwoofer isn't directly in front of the listener and in between the LR speaker), correct the phase (especially if not right under the LR), and have some method of reducing specific bass frequencies where there is room reinforcement and adding where there are partial nulls.

This is why two channel systems have scorned subwoofers for so long, without having some kind of cross over to control all of this it's difficult and annoying to seamlessly integrate a subwoofer. If you have full range towers you can skip some of the problems entirely or control for others (less room modes but then you just need to have 2-channel EQ since the high/low filtering is already handled internally in the speakers).

So you kind of have to 'choose' at the beginning because retrofitting is more problematic/annoying.

The Aiyima A07 is fine, not ideal as an ampbut good enough for those speakers I think (I don't know the impedance of those nor your room size/db requirements). With a powered subwoofer crossed over at 80hz I think you'll get 95% of the quality you could possibly get out of those speakers with any amp. Without a subwoofer you might find it lacking in the low end because they don't go particularly low and will probably require more power then the amp can provide if you try to force it anyways with EQ, so like 80% out of those speakers, and you could improve that by stepping up to an ncore amp, but that won't solve the physical issue of the speakers being incapable of going that low.

The E50 would let you use the RCA out as a sub-out signal but it won't be filtered. This isn't a huge issue with most powered amps since you can generally control that either on the plate or with their apps (along with phase sometimes but rarely timing). Since these have a decently high roll off you don't need to really highpass the speakers but you will want to give it more power if possible to make up for the inefficiency at the low end.

Again, if you can at all wait I would say get the Flex RCA and then use the Aiyima as an amp. Even if you don't use the DSP capabilities of the Flex you'll get an excellent DAC and have the option to add a sub and use DSP later. Otherwise I'd say get the E50 since it allows imperfect subwoofer integration and then get a better amp at some point (or larger speakers with higher efficiency).

 

[chang]

The issue with incorporating a sub is that generally you want to high pass the mains and low pass the subwoofer signal so neither component is trying to play in it's worse range, set a time delay if the subwoofer isn't equidistant from the listener to the mains (e.g. the subwoofer isn't directly in front of the listener and in between the LR speaker), correct the phase (especially if not right under the LR), and have some method of reducing specific bass frequencies where there is room reinforcement and adding where there are partial nulls.

This is why two channel systems have scorned subwoofers for so long, without having some kind of cross over to control all of this it's difficult and annoying to seamlessly integrate a subwoofer. If you have full range towers you can skip some of the problems entirely or control for others (less room modes but then you just need to have 2-channel EQ since the high/low filtering is already handled internally in the speakers).

So you kind of have to 'choose' at the beginning because retrofitting is more problematic/annoying.

The Aiyima A07 is fine, not ideal as an ampbut good enough for those speakers I think (I don't know the impedance of those nor your room size/db requirements). With a powered subwoofer crossed over at 80hz I think you'll get 95% of the quality you could possibly get out of those speakers with any amp. Without a subwoofer you might find it lacking in the low end because they don't go particularly low and will probably require more power then the amp can provide if you try to force it anyways with EQ, so like 80% out of those speakers, and you could improve that by stepping up to an ncore amp, but that won't solve the physical issue of the speakers being incapable of going that low.

The E50 would let you use the RCA out as a sub-out signal but it won't be filtered. This isn't a huge issue with most powered amps since you can generally control that either on the plate or with their apps (along with phase sometimes but rarely timing). Since these have a decently high roll off you don't need to really highpass the speakers but you will want to give it more power if possible to make up for the inefficiency at the low end.

Again, if you can at all wait I would say get the Flex RCA and then use the Aiyima as an amp. Even if you don't use the DSP capabilities of the Flex you'll get an excellent DAC and have the option to add a sub and use DSP later. Otherwise I'd say get the E50 since it allows imperfect subwoofer integration and then get a better amp at some point (or larger speakers with higher efficiency).

This is the exact problem I'm running into... how seamless will the transition be, when I choose to upgrade / add a sub.

The A07 seemed like such a good little amp with all of the praise it's gotten. I know I'll have to make compromises with a 2 ch setup in the beginning, but was hoping once the sub was incorporated, it would bring a nice balance to the system.

I believe the speakers are 6 ohm at 88 dB... the room is rectangular in shape at 13 x 22, and I'll be sitting about 10 to 12 ft. from the system (depending on speaker placement).

So, if the end result is a simple but clean 2.1 setup (for a first-timer), and I waited on the Flex balanced (or should I just stick with RCA and go with the 2x4 hd)... what integrated amp would you suggest to start with?

 

[Keened]

They have an RCA Flex, nothing wrong with it except it won't handle ground loops. So just make sure the amp and Flex are plugged into the same outlet/surge protector.

There is nothing wrong with the A07, it is a fine little amp. It's just that the lion's share of an amplifiers power is used to drive the lower frequency range, so if you give your speakers the full signal the amp will have to spend most of it's budget on trying to reproduce the most energy intensive part. This gets worse as you limit the size of the woofer and cabinet so in general you have to over budget your energy requirements.

A sub woofer will help fill in the lower end but it won't reduce the load on the LR because you will have to set it at a high volume to match what the subwoofer adds; both to disguise the speaker handoff and because you'll have to use the same gain control for the mids and upppers to match the overall volume and you can't control how the power is split inside the speaker. This is one of the massive benefits of active speakers where you only have to amplify what you want and where you want (or god forbid I say it, bi-amping with secondary amplifiers if the speaker supports it).

If you waited for the Flex you would not have to get any kind of integrated amp since the DAC, volume controls, and source selection would be already inside the Flex, you'd just have to get a simple power amp. The A07 works, lots of people like the PA5 (although there have been some troubling reports of spotty QC), or any ~$300 class-D amp short of old ICEPower modules or non-current gen 'chip' amps.

 

[chang]

They have an RCA Flex, nothing wrong with it except it won't handle ground loops. So just make sure the amp and Flex are plugged into the same outlet/surge protector.

There is nothing wrong with the A07, it is a fine little amp. It's just that the lion's share of an amplifiers power is used to drive the lower frequency range, so if you give your speakers the full signal the amp will have to spend most of it's budget on trying to reproduce the most energy intensive part. This gets worse as you limit the size of the woofer and cabinet so in general you have to over budget your energy requirements.

A sub woofer will help fill in the lower end but it won't reduce the load on the LR because you will have to set it at a high volume to match what the subwoofer adds; both to disguise the speaker handoff and because you'll have to use the same gain control for the mids and upppers to match the overall volume and you can't control how the power is split inside the speaker. This is one of the massive benefits of active speakers where you only have to amplify what you want and where you want (or god forbid I say it, bi-amping with secondary amplifiers if the speaker supports it).

If you waited for the Flex you would not have to get any kind of integrated amp since the DAC, volume controls, and source selection would be already inside the Flex, you'd just have to get a simple power amp. The A07 works, lots of people like the PA5 (although there have been some troubling reports of spotty QC), or any ~$300 class-D amp short of old ICEPower modules or non-current gen 'chip' amps.

Yeah, I'm use to car audio where an active setup is more straight forward. Not sure how to run a fully active system in bookshelf speakers.

Will having a sub out help with distributing power?

Is there a significant difference between the 2x4 HD and Flex for what I'm needing? With the toslink on the HD, seems that's all I need.

 

[Keened]

Fully transparent DAC/ADC (~30+ db better), digital volume control, user interface, bluetooth built in, etc.

The only reason I would get the 2x4HD is if I was planning a set it and forget it configuration for someone who only plays physical media (tapes, vinyl, etc). Don't get me wrong, it's still a capable device, but it isn't fully capable of transparant DSP up to CD quality. It will handle any lossy media fine and even with lossless media makes a general difference that most agree is worth it, but it's not quite able to handle it fully.

Fully active bookshelves are either bought as a package (Kali, etc) or are more of a lifestyle hobby (dipole speakers). Using something like the Flex lets you get a semi-active setup.

The subout only sends a line signal (non-amplified) so you would need either a powered sub or another amplifier to drive the passive sub.

 

[chang]

Fully transparent DAC/ADC (~30+ db better), digital volume control, user interface, bluetooth built in, etc.

The only reason I would get the 2x4HD is if I was planning a set it and forget it configuration for someone who only plays physical media (tapes, vinyl, etc). Don't get me wrong, it's still a capable device, but it isn't fully capable of transparant DSP up to CD quality. It will handle any lossy media fine and even with lossless media makes a general difference that most agree is worth it, but it's not quite able to handle it fully.

Fully active bookshelves are either bought as a package (Kali, etc) or are more of a lifestyle hobby (dipole speakers). Using something like the Flex lets you get a semi-active setup.

The subout only sends a line signal (non-amplified) so you would need either a powered sub or another amplifier to drive the passive sub.

Really appreciate the wealth of knowledge.

What exactly does transparent refer to?

That's disappointing to hear about the HD. The smart tv will be my only source, possibly an ipod every now and then... but I'm perfectly fine with listening off spotify. Still go with Flex or HD is enough?

Ah, gotcha on the powered sub.

I watched some minidsp setup videos and the learning curve looks steep... don't know if I'm ready for all that.

 

[Keened]

Really appreciate the wealth of knowledge.

What exactly does transparent refer to?

That's disappointing to hear about the HD. The smart tv will be my only source, possibly an ipod every now and then... but I'm perfectly fine with listening off spotify. Still go with Flex or HD is enough?

Ah, gotcha on the powered sub.

I watched some minidsp setup videos and the learning curve looks steep... don't know if I'm ready for all that.

Speaking loosely, transparent means there are no audible artifacts from introducing a specific element into the chain. So a super conducting wire would be the most transparent method of signal transfer as an example since you could add a much or as little of it as you please and the end result would remain the same.

Speaking a little bit more strictly, transparency means it introduces distortion and/or noise below the threshold of either human senses (~110-120db) or the source material's noise floor. So full transparency matters if you're in a quiet room listening to CD quality or better, or if you're going to be feeding the signal into another device for more processing. If you're in a noisy environment, listening to lossy audio/analog media, and there won't be further signal processing to worry about you don't really need full transparency.

The learning curve isn't that bad but you will have to sit with it for a bit. I'd get the Flex if for no other reason than unified volume control since your TV may or may not allow you to control the digital out volume and because the Flex is a newer platform with updates available to it in the future if you'd like (such as Dirac or different sources) while the HD is kind of what it is and whose only saving grace these days is availability and price. Again, great if you have an older relative who already has an analog setup and wants hidden DSP or if you have a single source media device (e.g. captive screen in a booth) and want to add some DSP. But I wouldn't suggest it for your home if you can get the Flex.

 

[chang]

Speaking loosely, transparent means there are no audible artifacts from introducing a specific element into the chain. So a super conducting wire would be the most transparent method of signal transfer as an example since you could add a much or as little of it as you please and the end result would remain the same.

Speaking a little bit more strictly, transparency means it introduces distortion and/or noise below the threshold of either human senses (~110-120db) or the source material's noise floor. So full transparency matters if you're in a quiet room listening to CD quality or better, or if you're going to be feeding the signal into another device for more processing. If you're in a noisy environment, listening to lossy audio/analog media, and there won't be further signal processing to worry about you don't really need full transparency.

The learning curve isn't that bad but you will have to sit with it for a bit. I'd get the Flex if for no other reason than unified volume control since your TV may or may not allow you to control the digital out volume and because the Flex is a newer platform with updates available to it in the future if you'd like (such as Dirac or different sources) while the HD is kind of what it is and whose only saving grace these days is availability and price. Again, great if you have an older relative who already has an analog setup and wants hidden DSP or if you have a single source media device (e.g. captive screen in a booth) and want to add some DSP. But I wouldn't suggest it for your home if you can get the Flex.

Appreciate the expedited learning process.

I understand your point. If going with the Flex, I'll have to build in stages then (financial reasons). In the meantime, is there an integrated amp (unbalanced) you would recommend to start with, that would pair well with the Flex later on?

 

[Keened]

Appreciate the expedited learning process.

I understand your point. If going with the Flex, I'll have to build in stages then (financial reasons). In the meantime, is there an integrated amp (unbalanced) you would recommend to start with, that would pair well with the Flex later on?

Eh, none for significantly cheaper. Most recommended integrated amps are ~$500. If you could still find a Topping MX3 for ~$200 that's be worth it, or it's successor the MX5, or a used WXA-50. I'd stick with something close to your original plan: D10/E30/E50 or the SMSL SH-9/any number of modern DAC, then pair it with an A07/PA3/PA5/etc and then sell it to swap out later.

The vast majority of integrated amps are predicated on people paying for ease of use and aesthetics so they tend to costs more for the same or lesser performance. I would even go so far as to say see if you can find cheap/free amplifiers in the used sections and throw all of your money at the Flex because we're going to continue to see better amps for less money for at least another few years while we've more or less finished with DACs other than features.

Edit: added MX5