Help with choosing a balanced DAC

[Paulzhere]

I would like to add a balanced DAC to my chain. I have a Hypex based NCore class D amp which accepts both RCA and balanced XLR inputs. The source is a WiiM Pro streamer streaming HiRes audio from internet services. After some research, I found two very well regarded balanced DACs, the Fosi Audio ZD3 and the Sabaj A20d 2022 version both having excellent measurements on the ASR website (maybe with the Sabaj a hair better than the Fosi). Now the Sabaj has full MQA decoding which I don't care for since I don't see myself decoding MQA audio in the near future. The Sabaj is around double the price of the Fosi ZD3. My question is, is the Sabaj really worth that much money over the Fosi in terms of sound and performance. Or is it just the premium for MQA decoding that one has to pay?

If you have other recommendations, I'd like to consider those too. Thanks for your help.

Cheers
Paul

 

[Svend P]

This should be mandatory reading for all questions regarding DACs

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Berwhale]

I would like to add a balanced DAC to my chain. I have a Hypex based NCore class D amp which accepts both RCA and balanced XLR inputs. The source is a WiiM Pro streamer streaming HiRes audio from internet services. After some research, I found two very well regarded balanced DACs, the Fosi Audio ZD3 and the Sabaj A20d 2022 version both having excellent measurements on the ASR website (maybe with the Sabaj a hair better than the Fosi). Now the Sabaj has full MQA decoding which I don't care for since I don't see myself decoding MQA audio in the near future. The Sabaj is around double the price of the Fosi ZD3. My question is, is the Sabaj really worth that much money over the Fosi in terms of sound and performance. Or is it just the premium for MQA decoding that one has to pay?

If you have other recommendations, I'd like to consider those too. Thanks for your help.

Cheers
Paul

Welcome to ASR Paul! To be honest, although the DAC in the Wiim Pro is not great when compared to to any of the well measuring stand-alone DACs on ASR, I would not expect to be able to hear any difference if you 'upgrade' to a stand-alone DAC. The reality is that your speaker and your room have far more impact on what you hear that most modern hi-fi electronics (unless it's broken or intentionally changing tonality).

There's a good thread explaining what you can and can't hear when it comes to DACs and Amps here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[Berwhale]

This should be mandatory reading for all questions regarding DACs

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I wouldn't force 521 pages of that on anyone!

 

[Svend P]

I wouldn't force 521 pages of that on anyone!

The first post says it all

 

[Timcognito]

Select Review Index (upper left) -> Electronics (in banner) -> Search Box (type DAC) -> Sort (click column headers of interest) Read comments as much information is there to answer the same concerns that you may have

 

[Paulzhere]

Thanks guys. I have been following ASR since it was created and also other forums which are older than ASR. It is just that I never had the opportunity to post here. I have read many of the posts in this forum including the one that has been proposed by Svend P. and I am all in for measurements as well because I am a scientist myself. I just wanted a help about which DAC to get. Thanks anyways.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
It's hard to be on ASR sometimes

Ask yourself why you want a balanced DAC, and what sound improvement you expect any DAC to give you over the WiiM Pro?

If you don't have a ground loop (horrible buzzing, audible noise) and you don't have some other source that you can't include because the WiiM doesn't have the inputs ... then there is no objective reason to upgrade.
The DAC in the WiiM is not the best, but it is still better than our ears - other DACs measure better but we can't hear the differences.

Having said that, we're human so if you just fancy a new DAC that is entirely your choice. Don't over-think it, don't over-spend and make sure you get the features you need

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Do you need subwoofer output in addition to front left & right speakers? And will you need room correction in the DAC to perform time correction in addition to frequency equalization? That issue will be a key factor when considering various options.

If you don't, an inexpensive TOPPING or SMSL DAC with S/PDIF input and Balanced output will be all you need to convert from WiiM Pro's output to your amplifiers balanced input. If you do, then even the RME ADI-2 line may not cover what you are looking for since that line does not have time delay room correction capabilities.

Also note: odds are very high that you can use 2-wire STP cable to create an unbalanced to balanced interconnect that will provide a high level of CMRR over the interconnect.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

What I find is with a good pair of full range speakers a sub is not needed. Adding subs can take away from the consistent sound offered by a well designed system and add an unneeded crossover at 80Hz. With the RME ADI-2 Loudness control I configure all the bass I could ever desire for music listening. If we are talking about movies and you require a sub for earth quake like sound effects or your speakers don't have an amazing low end like Revel F328Be, F228Be or BMR Monitors then use an AVR with an 80Hz crossover and all the subs you want.

True, and there are a lot of threads on the topic "Subwoofer -- Good or Bad Idea?"

But that question was about the what the OP needs for their audio chain in their desired setup, since it will affect our advice and their decision (assuming they do plan on using a subwoofer, despite your very excellent observation).

 

[Paulzhere]

Hi all. Thanks for your nice comments. So, I have been using a miniDSP in my signal chain (which also doubled as my DAC). I have been designing biquad filters for the parametric EQs and FIR filters for phase correction of my speakers, all in REW. However, recently my miniDSP decided to die on me... there is hiss and crackling coming from all its inputs. This made me rethink my setup. First, with age, I am more and more inclined towards a full stereo setup. I spend a lot of time placing my speakers as optimally in the room as possible, making millimeter adjustments to get the best imaging, central image strength etc. I think correct speaker setup is the single most important thing in audio, esp. stereo, which is a topic almost overlooked everywhere, possibly because there is no definitive guide for doing it. Proper speaker placement is more important than any DAC, any streamer, any amp... Each room and setup has its own whims. Anyway, I'm digressing. So while rethinking my setup, I decided to let go of as much processing of the audio path as possible and to just feed as pure a signal as possible to my speakers. Also, designing these filters in miniDSP is not easy and time consuming and depends on so many factors that in the end I don't know what benefit it brought to the sound eventually.

Going with my stereo setup idea, i sold my dual subs (Monolith 10 THXs). Now I am driving my speakers full range. These are a pair of Focal 836 VWs with the focal W sandwich cones and frankly they sound amazing. The bass out of these things, although not deep as the Monoliths, are superfast. The bass sounds faster to my ears than they did with the Monoliths (which has extremely low group delay measurements themselves). But that might be due to my error in time aligning them properly, which is kind of a pain (another reason i got rid of them... they didn't really sound coherent). I tried countless times taking measurements in REW and using all kinds of REW tools and tricks but they somehow sounded off. I am more than happy now driving my 836s full range, and as @amper42 said, i don't have to worry about annoying crossovers and phase aligning the thing at the crossover etc. Moreover, since I am mostly listening to music, mostly classical music, i don't need my bass to go that deep.

Long story short, I just need a nice DAC now in the chain since the miniDSP is gone. Also, my amp, a hypex class D has balanced XLR inputs, so why not a balanced DAC. I stream mostly from Qobuz in hires. Also I don't necessarily need a sub-out from the DAC since I'm driving my towers full range anyway.

I didn't know of the RME ADI dac before. I checked the price on Thomann and that seems like an overkill. I don't want to spend that much money on a DAC.

In any case, coming back to my original question, is the Sabaj A20d (or something similar in that price range) that much better than the Fosi ZD3 (or something similar in that price) to demand almost double the price? From the measurements I see that the A20d has around 3dB more SINAD than the ZD3, full MQA decoding, and slightly better dynamic range and the choice of filters. Fosi has an HDMI ARC, sub out, and also swappable opamps. Hence, the source of my confusion

Cheers

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi all. Thanks for your nice comments. So, I have been using a miniDSP in my signal chain (which also doubled as my DAC). I have been designing biquad filters for the parametric EQs and FIR filters for phase correction of my speakers, all in REW. However, recently my miniDSP decided to die on me... there is hiss and crackling coming from all its inputs. This made me rethink my setup. First, with age, I am more and more inclined towards a full stereo setup. I spend a lot of time placing my speakers as optimally in the room as possible, making millimeter adjustments to get the best imaging, central image strength etc. I think correct speaker setup is the single most important thing in audio, esp. stereo, which is a topic almost overlooked everywhere, possibly because there is no definitive guide for doing it. Proper speaker placement is more important than any DAC, any streamer, any amp... Each room and setup has its own whims. Anyway, I'm digressing. So while rethinking my setup, I decided to let go of as much processing of the audio path as possible and to just feed as pure a signal as possible to my speakers. Also, designing these filters in miniDSP is not easy and time consuming and depends on so many factors that in the end I don't know what benefit it brought to the sound eventually.

Going with my stereo setup idea, i sold my dual subs (Monolith 10 THXs). Now I am driving my speakers full range. These are a pair of Focal 836 VWs with the focal W sandwich cones and frankly they sound amazing. The bass out of these things, although not deep as the Monoliths, are superfast. The bass sounds faster to my ears than they did with the Monoliths (which has extremely low group delay measurements themselves). But that might be due to my error in time aligning them properly, which is kind of a pain (another reason i got rid of them... they didn't really sound coherent). I tried countless times taking measurements in REW and using all kinds of REW tools and tricks but they somehow sounded off. I am more than happy now driving my 836s full range, and as @amper42 said, i don't have to worry about annoying crossovers and phase aligning the thing at the crossover etc. Moreover, since I am mostly listening to music, mostly classical music, i don't need my bass to go that deep.

Long story short, I just need a nice DAC now in the chain since the miniDSP is gone. Also, my amp, a hypex class D has balanced XLR inputs, so why not a balanced DAC. I stream mostly from Qobuz in hires. Also I don't necessarily need a sub-out from the DAC since I'm driving my towers full range anyway.

I didn't know of the RME ADI dac before. I checked the price on Thomann and that seems like an overkill. I don't want to spend that much money on a DAC.

In any case, coming back to my original question, is the Sabaj A20d (or something similar in that price range) that much better than the Fosi ZD3 (or something similar in that price) to demand almost double the price? From the measurements I see that the A20d has around 3dB more SINAD than the ZD3, full MQA decoding, and slightly better dynamic range and the choice of filters. Fosi has an HDMI ARC, sub out, and also swappable opamps. Hence, the source of my confusion

Cheers

Fair enough.

I'd say, don't stress too much about mm-accurate speaker placement if you also plan to nod your head along with the music.

Sounds like a great setup though.

The Fosi DAC measures very well, and has the features you want. That would be my choice.

 

[ManniX]

Fosi has an HDMI ARC, sub out, and also swappable opamps.

AFAIK it doesn't have sub out.
The Sabaj is definitely a notch better but also 3 times the price.
It's lacking the trigger ports of the ZD3 but maybe you don't care.

 

[Paulzhere]

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS can seem like a steep price. However, based on your post you are trying to get every little inch out of your sound by moving speakers and optimizing this and that. For one moment, image none of that is needed and instead you have an ADI-2 DAC FS and can tweak the sound to exactly where you want it without having to change ANYTHING ELSE. AND you can do it while your favorite tunes playing.

Looking for that bass slam you could never get quite right? Boom it's there.
Looking for that special crisp treble and fantastic shimering cymbals? Baam.. dialed-in.
It's a totally different experience. So much control, it's crazy!

That extra money you spend on the ADI-2 will take your system to the next level whether playing at low volumes or high SPL. It's a totally different way of looking at things. If you are not interested probably best not to upgrade the DAC at all and just use the Wiim. Because the sound difference will be very minimal with another DAC, while the sound control the RME offers with the ADI-2 software is a quantum leap higher. If you don't believe me, I totally understand. But if you think it's worth a try, buy the ADI-2 DAC FS from a reputable dealer that takes returns - no questions asked. Once you load the ADI-2 software and dial in the Bass and Treble just where you want it you'll be stunned how much new control you have.

Thanks. I’ll give it a thought Also how about the Eversolo DMP A6? It has been making a lot of noise online. I see that they are out with a gen 2 version now.

 

[JustJones]

Thanks. I’ll give it a thought Also how about the Eversolo DMP A6? It has been making a lot of noise online. I see that they are out with a gen 2 version now.

Looks good . No subout but you said you're not interested. There's also the Node Icon which I believe is up for review here.

Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer and balanced DAC. It was sent to me by the company. I don't have the price but see it on sale for US $850. The DMP-A6 design is absolutely gorgeous. A large, high contrast LCD allows it to show realistic visualizations...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[DaneelOlivaw]

Hi all. Thanks for your nice comments. So, I have been using a miniDSP in my signal chain (which also doubled as my DAC). I have been designing biquad filters for the parametric EQs and FIR filters for phase correction of my speakers, all in REW. However, recently my miniDSP decided to die on me... there is hiss and crackling coming from all its inputs. This made me rethink my setup. First, with age, I am more and more inclined towards a full stereo setup. I spend a lot of time placing my speakers as optimally in the room as possible, making millimeter adjustments to get the best imaging, central image strength etc. I think correct speaker setup is the single most important thing in audio, esp. stereo, which is a topic almost overlooked everywhere, possibly because there is no definitive guide for doing it. Proper speaker placement is more important than any DAC, any streamer, any amp... Each room and setup has its own whims. Anyway, I'm digressing. So while rethinking my setup, I decided to let go of as much processing of the audio path as possible and to just feed as pure a signal as possible to my speakers. Also, designing these filters in miniDSP is not easy and time consuming and depends on so many factors that in the end I don't know what benefit it brought to the sound eventually.

Going with my stereo setup idea, i sold my dual subs (Monolith 10 THXs). Now I am driving my speakers full range. These are a pair of Focal 836 VWs with the focal W sandwich cones and frankly they sound amazing. The bass out of these things, although not deep as the Monoliths, are superfast. The bass sounds faster to my ears than they did with the Monoliths (which has extremely low group delay measurements themselves). But that might be due to my error in time aligning them properly, which is kind of a pain (another reason i got rid of them... they didn't really sound coherent). I tried countless times taking measurements in REW and using all kinds of REW tools and tricks but they somehow sounded off. I am more than happy now driving my 836s full range, and as @amper42 said, i don't have to worry about annoying crossovers and phase aligning the thing at the crossover etc. Moreover, since I am mostly listening to music, mostly classical music, i don't need my bass to go that deep.

Long story short, I just need a nice DAC now in the chain since the miniDSP is gone. Also, my amp, a hypex class D has balanced XLR inputs, so why not a balanced DAC. I stream mostly from Qobuz in hires. Also I don't necessarily need a sub-out from the DAC since I'm driving my towers full range anyway.

I didn't know of the RME ADI dac before. I checked the price on Thomann and that seems like an overkill. I don't want to spend that much money on a DAC.

In any case, coming back to my original question, is the Sabaj A20d (or something similar in that price range) that much better than the Fosi ZD3 (or something similar in that price) to demand almost double the price? From the measurements I see that the A20d has around 3dB more SINAD than the ZD3, full MQA decoding, and slightly better dynamic range and the choice of filters. Fosi has an HDMI ARC, sub out, and also swappable opamps. Hence, the source of my confusion

Cheers

Hi,
I regret not seeing your question earlier.
I own two a20D, the 2022 and the 2023. I am very satisfied with both. I was able to compare these directly with an Aiyima A80 (ES9038q2m) via a switch. The A80 unfortunately only via 3.5 to RCA. Both A20Ds have a more precise spatiality.
But this may also be due to the fact that I did my tests via Bluetooth and the A20D is superior to the ZD3 due to its built-in LDAC Bluetooth.
The built-in headphone amplifier is also the best I have and justifies the price (300€ at Amazon).