Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

[Nutsfortubes]

As a Linney would say Garbage in garbage out.

 

[Angsty]

33 pages on this topic and growing. This is not that hard. Vinyl is fun because of the physical format and the inherent variability between systems and pressings. It is an endless delight for tweakers and those with OCD. Digital may be more accurate and less variable, but those things may make it less fun and engaging for some people. Vinyl systems are more complicated because there are so many variables that the owner can influence, but it also makes it easy to overspend for marginal (or imagined) performance increase.

I really like the advice that Andrew Robinson said in his YouTube channel: "The best turntable on the market today is the one you can afford. ...The only person who has to be impressed with your setup is you."

I think you will find in measurements of turntables that the margin of difference between an AT LP120X and a unit 10x as much is probably not as great as the price difference.

 

[Angsty]

I feel urged to share these cartridge test results so that you can really see what we are working with in vinyl. The Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star is a US $2000 cartridge, and by most reports, a very fine performer. Here are the frequency response and distortion curves for it:

Freq. resp. curves (–8dB re. 5cm/sec) lateral (L+R, black) vs. vertical (L–R, red) vs. stereo dashed

Lateral (L+R, black infill) and vertical (L–R, red) tracing and generator distortion (2nd-4th harmonics) vs. frequency from 20Hz-20kHz (–8dB re. 5cm/sec)

Summarized:

L/R Distortion (–8dB, 20Hz-20kHz)	0.5–15% / 1.9–12%
L/R Frequency resp. (20Hz-20kHz)	–0.9 to +1.3dB / –0.7 to +1.4dB

So, the distortion and frequency response are orders of magnitude worse than digital - and this is a "good" cartridge that costs more than most vinyl lover's entire analog front end! But in selecting this or any cartridge, you get to "tune" your system's sound to your liking.

Lesson: don't expect "accuracy" from vinyl; expect an experience you can enjoy if you value things other than absolute transparency and accuracy to the master tape. Embrace your turntable for what it is - a very flawed but nonetheless often compelling way to enjoy an archaic medium. Although improvements are possible, no amount of money you throw at it will fundamentally change that reality.

Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star Cartridge

Arguably best known for its high-end strain-gauge pick-ups, Soundsmith also offers a series of high- and low-output moving-iron/fixed-coil cartridges. Is the Zephyr a 'star'? The so-called 'vinyl revival' has not only fermented an uptick in sales of both turntables and LP records but it's also...

www.hifinews.com

 

[drewdawg999]

I'd like to attempt to articulate my love for the medium of vinyl. It goes beyond ritual, the perusing of record stores, seeking out certain pressings, the handling of physical medium and large cover art. Those things are wonderful, some people like to just prop them up on the wall and stare at them all day. That is not me. I'm in it for the sonics.

For one thing, there is no listener fatigue at all. This cannot be overlooked for someone who likes to listen all day every day. I don't know what it is to listen to a high end DAC but on my very modest digital systems, this is a problem. And for some reason unknown to me, vinyl is just more involving and holds my attention better. It's appointment listening. I can just sit there and stare into space or close my eyes and enjoy the music. With digital, it's often used as background music while cooking or surfing the net or cleaning house, whatever. It's convenient since you don't have to get up and flip every 20 minutes or so, so you can just leave it on and go about your business.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to this or my system is geared towards analogue, but I believe vinyl to be more natural and digital to be more artificial (as stated by mastering engineer Bernie Grundman). I can't explain this scientifically but I think it has something to do with a non-infinite sampling frequency. I know Nyquist theorem says that 44.1kHz is enough and beyond human detectability, but I'm not buying. Vinyl is smoother by a large margin to my ears, vibrating my eardrums in a more pleasing fashion. Its image is more palpable, you can reach out and touch it, the illusion is more convincing. I don't know why this is, perhaps the vibration of the stylus closely mirrors the vibration of the eardrum. My reference is acoustic instruments, especially saxophones and pianos. For some reason there's more heft and weight and when you close your eyes you can feel the instrument in the room with you. I love that feeling. Something with PCM is just missing, not supposed to be but it is. I think DSD archives analogue masters better, but still not as good as old vinyl.

I understand my impressions are largely subjective, but music is a subjective thing. We're talking about art here. The construction of a cartridge is an artisanal process (at least in the high end). I max out my cartridges and my two best ones are an old Koetsu Black (just newly refurbished) and a Clearaudio Maestro v2, four figures baby! This may be off-putting and cost-prohibitive to most, but that's where the rubber meets the road and where I choose to spend my money, spending up to the cost of the table on the cartridge. It's kind of crazy since styluses have pretty short life spans, but I'm really at just the entry level here, they can reach the stratosphere. There's something romantic about cartridges that I can't quite explain. Maybe it's the expensive jewelry aspect of it.

So I'm really after a more romantic, warm and lush sound, which is what vinyl provides me, the more convincing aural illusion. It's not about chasing SINAD, or neutrality, linearity, or reading graphs. Those things are good for choosing DACs, but in the world of vinyl, it's not really about measurements. It's about the ear test, and if you can't trust your own ears to make judgments on audio fidelity, then I'm sorry but you're missing out. Numbers say one thing, yet my ears say another. Perhaps you have to spend a certain amount to get the true benefits, though I say a Rega P3 is sufficient, which isn't too outrageous. Though I remember enjoying vinyl on my old creaky Dual as well, many years ago. Classic rock just slaps on vinyl. As does classic jazz. And the golden age of classical recordings too. It's about old music, with all analogue being preferable, and lucky for me that's just what I love. Simply put, vinyl is more enjoyable than digital for me, and that's the most important thing with music, to have fun and enjoy.

 

[Angsty]

I can't explain this scientifically but I think it has something to do with a non-infinite sampling frequency.

I enjoy vinyl, too. I have two separate set-ups. But I can't attribute to vinyl an "infinite" sampling frequency. I won't delve into the technical arguments of Nyquist and sampling theory, but I will point to an obvious difference: RPMs. There is a reason why higher-end recordings use 45 RPM vs. 33.3 RPM: it's effectively a higher sampling frequency. And if 45 > 33 when it comes to "sampling", then neither is "infinite".

Just enjoy the vinyl - don't try to reach for a semi-rational explanation of why it's superior or more "natural". There's literally nothing "natural" about the process of recording, mastering, pressing and playing a vinyl record.

 

[drewdawg999]

I enjoy vinyl, too. I have two separate set-ups. But I can't attribute to vinyl an "infinite" sampling frequency. I won't delve into the technical arguments of Nyquist and sampling theory, but I will point to an obvious difference: RPMs. There is a reason why higher-end recordings use 45 RPM vs. 33.3 RPM: it's effectively a higher sampling frequency. And if 45 > 33 when it comes to "sampling", then neither is "infinite".

Just enjoy the vinyl - don't try to reach for a semi-rational explanation of why it's superior or more "natural". There's literally nothing "natural" about the process of recording, mastering, pressing and playing a vinyl record.

Well I'm one who isn't into 45s. I have one audiophile 12", a Staples single, and a nice Elvis singles boxed set from the pawn shop. But I have a hard time telling a difference in sound quality. It should be better since there's more bumps and grooves per second, but I don't know, maybe my system isn't good enough. Or I've lost some hearing, though I'm proud to be able to hear 16kHz at my age. But they don't make 78s anymore, do they?

Anyways, it's semantics but sampling frequency is the wrong term for analogue since there's no sampling going on. It's just continuous in the time domain, is what I meant. It's smoother for me. And natural is Grundman's term for it and I agree with him. A saxophone definitely sounds more natural and realistic to me on vinyl, I don't know why and don't need to. I may be irrational, I may be subjective, but I do enjoy the hell out of vinyl, I dig it the most.

 

[Nutsfortubes]

Ok here is an aspect of vinyl that has nothing to do with sound. Try and get this with FLAC or cds even. I believe the original retail was $699.00 and when I told my wife I wanted to get it she said I was nuts.

Led Zeppelin- Led Zeppelin—Classic Records Road Case (48x LPs 200g/45 rpm | eBay

It’s looks as if it was very well taken care of. I can send 5 pics to you.

www.ebay.com

 

[IPunchCholla]

I’ve just recently started listening to vinyl again. I think I may be weird, because I did it to tweak LESS. in my digital setup, I have about 5 EQs I am using on a regular basis. Two for my headphones (same headphone two EQs) and three for my speakers. Two for my desk listening position and one for my lounge listening position (all of 5 feet away). I am constantly tweaking and measuring and tweaking and measuring and switching EQs.

I got a turntable for $75 Technics SL-QD33, a phono stage Alivia Solo ($180), replaced the needle (oval)($25) but kept the Realistic RX1500 cartridge. It sounds pretty darn good.

The idea was good enough TT. Good enough cartridge and needle, good enough phono stage, then just listen. Put on a record, choose repeat or not, sit down and just listen for 20+ minutes. It’s gonna sound how it’s gonna sound, so I focus on the music rather than worrying about fidelity or squeezing every last measure out of my system.

For me it’s like film in the still photography world. Not better in any measurable way, but the constraints make you focus your intention and skills. Yes, I can bring the same focus to digital, and I do. But when I find myself falling down minutia holes, I’ll often shoot film or put on a record in order to recalibrate my intentions.

 

[Angsty]

The idea was good enough TT. Good enough cartridge and needle, good enough phono stage, then just listen. Put on a record, choose repeat or not, sit down and just listen for 20+ minutes. It’s gonna sound how it’s gonna sound, so I focus on the music rather than worrying about fidelity or squeezing every last measure out of my system

This whole music game is really about psychology, not really electro-acoustics. Good enough is good enough. Fret less, enjoy the ride.

 

[TheBatsEar]

So, the distortion and frequency response are orders of magnitude worse than digital - and this is a "good" cartridge that costs more than most vinyl lover's entire analog front end! But in selecting this or any cartridge, you get to "tune" your system's sound to your liking.

Lesson: don't expect "accuracy" from vinyl

You get 8/10 for stating the obvious that late in the thread. But only 4/10 for the trolling effect.
If you want to arouse record player fanatics into hypertension, you must up your game.

 

[Angsty]

You get 8/10 for stating the obvious that late in the thread. But only 4/10 for the trolling effect.
If you want to arouse record player fanatics into hypertension, you must up your game.
View attachment 196117

Touché. I really must develop a personal policy about joining long threads late!

 

[Bob from Florida]

I feel urged to share these cartridge test results so that you can really see what we are working with in vinyl. The Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star is a US $2000 cartridge, and by most reports, a very fine performer. Here are the frequency response and distortion curves for it:

Freq. resp. curves (–8dB re. 5cm/sec) lateral (L+R, black) vs. vertical (L–R, red) vs. stereo dashed

Lateral (L+R, black infill) and vertical (L–R, red) tracing and generator distortion (2nd-4th harmonics) vs. frequency from 20Hz-20kHz (–8dB re. 5cm/sec)

Summarized:

L/R Distortion (–8dB, 20Hz-20kHz)	0.5–15% / 1.9–12%
L/R Frequency resp. (20Hz-20kHz)	–0.9 to +1.3dB / –0.7 to +1.4dB

So, the distortion and frequency response are orders of magnitude worse than digital - and this is a "good" cartridge that costs more than most vinyl lover's entire analog front end! But in selecting this or any cartridge, you get to "tune" your system's sound to your liking.

Lesson: don't expect "accuracy" from vinyl; expect an experience you can enjoy if you value things other than absolute transparency and accuracy to the master tape. Embrace your turntable for what it is - a very flawed but nonetheless often compelling way to enjoy an archaic medium. Although improvements are possible, no amount of money you throw at it will fundamentally change that reality.

Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star Cartridge

Arguably best known for its high-end strain-gauge pick-ups, Soundsmith also offers a series of high- and low-output moving-iron/fixed-coil cartridges. Is the Zephyr a 'star'? The so-called 'vinyl revival' has not only fermented an uptick in sales of both turntables and LP records but it's also...

www.hifinews.com

Thanks for posting the link to this. I also looked at some other cartridges they reviewed. The distortion graphs are more similar between cartridges than different. Twelve to fifteen percent distortion is "high" no matter how you wish to describe it. Even differing technologies showed similar distortion curves - optical and strain gauges cartridges that were tested. This raises the question - how much distortion in the results is "baked" into the test record? Another question is - what is the distribution of the harmonics? I tried to locate more information regarding their methodology without success. An interesting observation - the distortion graph is linear scale with the frequency response being log scale. The linear scale makes the distortion components look - while bad - worse from a visual perspective. If you have been focused on "ruler straight" digital test results, these must look truly "horrible".
Pretty amazing vinyl can sound as good as it does.

 

[Angsty]

Thanks for posting the link to this. I also looked at some other cartridges they reviewed. The distortion graphs are more similar between cartridges than different. Twelve to fifteen percent distortion is "high" no matter how you wish to describe it. Even differing technologies showed similar distortion curves - optical and strain gauges cartridges that were tested. This raises the question - how much distortion in the results is "baked" into the test record? Another question is - what is the distribution of the harmonics? I tried to locate more information regarding their methodology without success. An interesting observation - the distortion graph is linear scale with the frequency response being log scale. The linear scale makes the distortion components look - while bad - worse from a visual perspective. If you have been focused on "ruler straight" digital test results, these must look truly "horrible".
Pretty amazing vinyl can sound as good as it does.

Seems to me that shaking a stick with a rock on one end at 10,000 times a second is bound to introduce some distortion. Fortunately, our hearing is such that we are less sensitive to distortion at high frequencies.

 

[Newman]

Indeed. The implication that vinyl discussions on ASR, this one in particular, don't have any "balance" is belied by the fact that virtually everyone has acknowledged the liabilities of vinyl. In literally every thread.

…and which is immediately countered with statements like, “vinyl is the only intelligent way to collect music”. So, no. Unless you call that balance.

 

[Newman]

Pretty amazing vinyl can sound as good as it does.

That’s the power of confirmation bias for you. Not amazing at all.

To boot, Stereophile IIRC rate those particular carts right at the top of their A list. The worse, the better, you know.

 

[Godataloss]

33 pages on this topic and growing. This is not that hard. Vinyl is fun because of the physical format and the inherent variability between systems and pressings. It is an endless delight for tweakers and those with OCD. Digital may be more accurate and less variable, but those things may make it less fun and engaging for some people. Vinyl systems are more complicated because there are so many variables that the owner can influence, but it also makes it easy to overspend for marginal (or imagined) performance increase.

I really like the advice that Andrew Robinson said in his YouTube channel: "The best turntable on the market today is the one you can afford. ...The only person who has to be impressed with your setup is you."

I think you will find in measurements of turntables that the margin of difference between an AT LP120X and a unit 10x as much is probably not as great as the price difference.

Good lord is that dude the epitome of hipster.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Seems to me that shaking a stick with a rock on one end at 10,000 times a second is bound to introduce some distortion. Fortunately, our hearing is such that we are less sensitive to distortion at high frequencies.

Very true. I ran the numbers in db and at 12% we are at -18.4 db. This would be audible if we can hear the high frequency components - fundamental frequency looks to be around 12KHZ at 12%. Second harmonic would be 24KHZ, so maybe we don't hear it even during loud playback. Looking at the graph this way may explain why vinyl sounds pretty good,

 

[Angsty]

Good lord is that dude the epitome of hipster.

I don't always agree with Andrew, but I agree with this bit of insight. As my grandma taught me ages ago, "you can learn something from anybody".

 

[rdenney]

Thanks for posting the link to this. I also looked at some other cartridges they reviewed. The distortion graphs are more similar between cartridges than different. Twelve to fifteen percent distortion is "high" no matter how you wish to describe it. Even differing technologies showed similar distortion curves - optical and strain gauges cartridges that were tested. This raises the question - how much distortion in the results is "baked" into the test record? Another question is - what is the distribution of the harmonics? I tried to locate more information regarding their methodology without success. An interesting observation - the distortion graph is linear scale with the frequency response being log scale. The linear scale makes the distortion components look - while bad - worse from a visual perspective. If you have been focused on "ruler straight" digital test results, these must look truly "horrible".
Pretty amazing vinyl can sound as good as it does.

I don't worry too much about high distortion at high frequencies.

1. I can't hear it anyway.

2. The second harmonic of a 10KHz waveform is 20KHz, which is already above the audible range for most people. And even those who can hear it well enough to know it's there can't necessarily pick it out of broadbanded content. So, 10 KHz seems to me the upper limit of where we need to worry about harmonic distortion. Intermodulation distortion is perhaps another thing, if there are mixing products that become audible further down, but these graphs don't seem to make the distinction.

3. Content above 10 KHz is relatively low in level and related to specific details, not a fundamental part of the timbre of musical instruments. If I were to brickwall content at 10KHz, I'll lose some ambience and maybe a bit of the characteristic sibilance of metallic percussion instruments like cymbals and bells. It would not have the same effect as removing any of the other octaves above maybe 40 Hz. (The 20-40 Hz octave is arguably more important, and yet we by my observation spend less energy defending its importance.)

I have played with distortion generators (aka, my old, cheap Tektronix signal generator), and I can clearly hear 0.5% distortion of a 100-Hz sine wave. I can barely hear a 10 KHz sine wave at the same voltage, and it sounds the same even when I drive the generator's output well into the range that shows clipping on a scope. In fact, at that frequency, a square wave sounds the same as a sine wave. (My generator will crank the signal up to 20 V p-p, about 7.something VRMS, but at the top of that range it clips.)

Rick "may be misreading the graphs" Denney

 

[Godataloss]

I don't always agree with Andrew, but I agree with this bit of insight. As my grandma taught me ages ago, "you can learn something from anybody".

Sure, but is the ukelele really necessary?