Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Ml2316]

I personally am discouraged from relying entirely on measurements by the fact that amir's recommendations are not a perfect correlation with the objective score. He recommends some speakers with below a score of 2 but doesn't recommend some with above a score of 3. I'm not faulting him for that, it just tells me that the score doesn't fully capture enjoyment or satisfaction for the listener.

I think it would be interesting if the were a crowd sourced rating system here for each speaker. Since most people here are a little more discerning about audio, it could be much more useful than Amazon's ratings. Or even crutchfield's.

 

[Ml2316]

You should be discouraged from relying on any one, single factor in evaluation of audio equipment .... or anything else, for that matter. Measurements are only one facet of evaluation. They don't make any statement about the " ... enjoyment and satisfaction ..." anymore than photographs of a beautiful woman will tell you how much the two of you will love each other.

Amir's reactions are a reference. A crowd sourced system would have absolutely no single point of reference, and all you'd have are huge arguments about personal taste, washing hither and thither like waves, that would destroy the very reason for the scoring system.

In the end, the only enjoyment and satisfaction that matter are yours, not someone else's. That's why subjective reviewers who are trying to use their own opinions to foist crap on gullible viewers are so utterly useless. You can transfer cargo and you can transfer money, but you can't transfer opinions. Jim

True, I guess if you know you like brighter speakers and you know amir doesn't then maybe you can correct for that, but there's just so much other subtlety that is hard to accurately translate from the measurements.

 

[zepplock]

True, I guess if you know you like brighter speakers and you know amir doesn't then maybe you can correct for that, but there's just so much other subtlety that is hard to accurately translate from the measurements.

That's actually the opposite. From a sound perspective, it's all measurable. Including all subtleties.
What is not measurable by Amir is: your room, your gear, company warranty and support, longevity, susceptance to elements, WAF.

 

[Robin L]

Why would you use people who were not used to making such comparisons? It makes no sense.

Because audiophiles get high on the ready supply of snake oil, that's why. Normal folk are unaffected by snake oil, being unaware of its existence.

 

[Ml2316]

That's actually the opposite. From a sound perspective, it's all measurable. Including all subtleties.
What is not measurable by Amir is: your room, your gear, company warranty and support, longevity, susceptance to elements, WAF.

I mean for the average person it'sdifficult to know how small differences in the measurements would translate to differences in satisfaction with the sound in real life. I.e. It's a prediction problem where the inputs are the objective measurements and the output is ones estimation of their satisfaction with that speaker. And the subtlety lies within the error rate for that prediction.

 

[zepplock]

I mean for the average person it'sdifficult to know how small differences in the measurements would translate to differences in satisfaction with the sound in real life.

Of course. I totally agree with you. I'm also under impression that on this forum there are more technical people than just average-joe-customer.

For example I don't test gear now but I spent several years writing test software/hardware for telephony, which included testing VOIP codecs, digital/analog converters, cables, transmission over ethernet/wifi/etc.

I also re-read your post and I think your point is that measurements include subtleties, not missing because un-testable.

 

[Ml2316]

Of course. I totally agree with you. I'm also under impression that on this forum there are more technical people than just average-joe-customer.

For example I don't test gear now but I spent several years writing test software/hardware for telephony, which included testing VOIP codecs, digital/analog converters, cables, transmission over ethernet/wifi/etc.

I also re-read your post and I think your point is that measurements include subtleties, not missing because un-testable.

Yeah, just saying that the measurements give us reliable objective info but then there is still the problem of the individual learning to predict their experience from that info. But like you said, some people will be better at that, and theoretically you could become arbitrarily good at it.

 

[Ml2316]

The issue is further clouded by the fact that some people want quick and easy answers to complex problems, and quick and easy answers to complex problems do not exist. Jim

Which raises the question... What is the recommended way for a noob to embark on the process of choosing a speaker? Listen with headphones to binaural recordings on the web then study amir's measurements?

 

[sonitus mirus]

Hearing songs without obvious distortion at enjoyable volume levels is the main goal for me. I perform basic research on product specifications and I read up on anything that includes some applicable measurements to make sure I am not missing something important that might present an obstacle to my overall objective. I have been extremely satisfied with this approach.

 

[krabapple]

Sorry for going off-topic but Audio Asylum was my go to audio forum in the late 90s & 2000s. It now seems like a shell of its former self. I wonder what happened over there.

It was always a hotbed of subjectivist audiophile nonsense. Has that changed?

 

[Ml2316]

Sorry for going off-topic but Audio Asylum was my go to audio forum in the late 90s & 2000s. It now seems like a shell of its former self. I wonder what happened over there.

So many things are a shell of their late nineties selves. It's almost too sad for me to bear. As a famous nineties musician once sang, I'm half the man I used to be.

 

[Ml2316]

1) Most important is to listen to different speaker systems. Many different speaker systems. The more you listen, the more you will realize that you have ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes. You are also teaching your ears (and brain) to separate the sound of the speaker from the sound of the room(s). That is important. Room interaction can drive you crazy.

2) Your idea of headphones is a good one. Listen to certain music selections until you really know them well. Put them on a thumb drive and take it with you to audition speakers. Play the music, but listen on your headphones also. You'll probably notice a difference. It might be good or it might be bad, but you'll notice it. That's training your ears. If the retailers won't allow you to do this, walk away. It will be hard to do once you see all the shiny new merchandise they have and get caught up in their B.S. spiels, but you need to protect yourself. Walk away.

3) If you can, listen to speakers that have been reviewed here. Try to correlate the graphs you see with the sound you hear. In particular, try to make a correlation between smooth frequency response items and ones that exhibit response that is not smooth. Different people have different thresholds of sensitivity to response aberrations. You need to know yours. Again, this is using the thumb drive with the music with which you are familiar. It helps to A/B speakers in the retailer's room, switching quickly. Just be aware that if they say that they need to switch cables, and move slowly, you're probably being scammed. Switch boxes that let you A/B instantly and under load have existed for many years, and they're inexpensive. Auditory memory is fleeting.

4) Study the reviews on this site of speakers. Pay special attention to distortion levels. If you intend to use the speaker in a fairly near-field environment, pay attention to the 86 dB distortion profile. If you intend to sit further away from the speaker, pay attention to the 96 dB distortion profile. That means distortion not only in the bass, but spikes of distortion higher in frequency, too. Check directivity characteristics, also, whether you intend to listen nearfield or midfield. When I auditioned speakers, I found the best references were pro (monitor) speakers. I'd say that's probably still true.

5) This may sound like a lot of trouble .... and it is. But speakers are by far and away the most expensive items in my setup, and the ones that I expect to be consistent and reliable for many years. I'm not a buy-and-sell type of guy. However, if you have the money, that is an excellent way to audition speakers in your home environment. It's also an excellent way to drive yourself nuts, caught up in an endless rat race of different speakers.

6) All this stuff is only good if you can get to a place (or places) and listen to speakers. I can't emphasize that enough. Ordering a speaker without auditioning it is like ordering a mail-order bride. Not a good idea.

I hope this rambling mess has helped you a bit. Jim Taylor

I just rented some demo racquets recently to help my tennis racquet buying decision. I wonder if there's something similar for speakers. Although, buying used and selling used is a kind of rental in a way. The shipping costs are the rental fee.

Thanks, by the way, great food for thought.

 

[Robin L]

So many things are a shell of their late nineties selves. It's almost too sad for me to bear. As a famous nineties musician once sang, I'm half the man I used to be.

A famous nineties musician chimes in with a similar tale of woe:

 

[Music1969]

Hmmh yeah, maybe Topping D90SE measures nice here, but, it depends how you look at things.

I did run some measurements too.

View attachment 180265

OK, that looked decent, let's see how it looks like with -60 dBFS input:
View attachment 180266

OK, WTF is going on here? Let's try the same -60 dBFS signal with 352.8k rate:
View attachment 180267

OK, better, but something is still wrong. How about DSD256 input:
View attachment 180268

Better still, but still some noise floor modulation issues.

If we then take a half price DAC with same test, same DAC chip:
View attachment 180273


View attachment 180269

Now that's better!

And we can even go to about 250€ PCIe card based on AKM chip:
View attachment 180272

So maybe choosing a DAC based on the SINAD chart is not the best thing to do. I wasted 900€, and the D90SE stays in the box. I had totally opposite experience with the ADI-2 for example. Maybe more thorough testing by the manufacturer?

Did @JohnYang1997 see these results?

 

[Music1969]

Link?



Does it?

View attachment 187521
View attachment 187522

@JohnYang1997 check this one also.

Would be great if > 20kHz can be cleaner in future Topping products.

Not really for audibility - more for engineering excellence.

Like the RME ADI-2 performance shown there.

You can do it !

 

[Music1969]

First question, which one of the two PCM USB endpoints are you using in your tests? D90SE has two PCM altsettings and one DSD altsetting. I never use Windows drivers or such, source is always Linux with the built-in kernel UAC2 driver.

At 705.6k, do a linear sweep and observe the behavior. Here's 0 - 22.05 kHz linear sweep, at 705.6k sampling rate and analyzer in peak-hold mode.
View attachment 187214

It won't happen at 1 kHz tone for this sweep, but once the sweep reaches about 10 kHz it goes nuts. This also happens for DSD inputs at both DSD256 and DSD512, even with 1 kHz tones.

Low level sweep at 705.6k rate:
View attachment 187215

I have now tested this on two physically distinct locations and three different measurement systems. Nothing else in common except the D90SE.



That is what they promise, but my unit performs much better than that.

For comparison, EVGA NU-Audio PCIe sound card, -60 dBFS 1 kHz sine at DSD256 input:
View attachment 187216

Or Holo Audio Spring 3, 1 kHz at -120 dB 20-bit noise-shaped input at 705.6k:
View attachment 187217


Interesting it happens only with this DAC, out of ~30 others. Maybe my unit is broken, but if others also measure changes in noise floor with DSD inputs and worsening THD+N as rate increases, there's something wrong with the DAC, because the ESS Sabre doesn't have such behavior.

For example SMSL M500 mkII:
View attachment 187220

View attachment 187221

Also check this post @JohnYang1997 - again >20kHz could be cleaner, compared to these other products.

Would be great if this gets solved in future

 

[SIY]

Did @JohnYang1997 see these results?

Likely, but as was pointed out by several people, there seems to be some measurement error, which is tough to pin down because the measurements were not accompanied by the information need to interpret or repeat them.

 

[Music1969]

Likely, but as was pointed out by several people, there seems to be some measurement error, which is tough to pin down because the measurements were not accompanied by the information need to interpret or repeat them.

Noted, I did follow the entire thing.

I just wanted to tag Johny, only in case he didn't see those 3 posts I linked, in particular.

 

[Jimbob54]

Noted, I did follow the entire thing.

I just wanted to tag Johny, only in case he didn't see those 3 posts I linked, in particular.

I might be wrong but I think John Y might have left the proverbial building.

 

[Music1969]

I might be wrong but I think John Y might have left the proverbial building.

Left Topping?

Or left ASR?

Or both?