Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Freddy]

"Ever heard wine enthusiasts debate about how the wine glass massively affects the taste of wine?" The glass can certainly affect the taste of the wine. If you do not know this, you are not a wine drinker. Burgundies, Bordeaux, highly tannic reds all require different glasses.

 

[flz]

"Ever heard wine enthusiasts debate about how the wine glass massively affects the taste of wine?" The glass can certainly affect the taste of the wine. If you do not know this, you are not a wine drinker. Burgundies, Bordeaux, highly tannic reds all require different glasses.

Yes, I know and agree. Hence, it actually not that far fetched to say that the design of a fork may affect the taste sensation of a piece of meat.

 

[Mart68]

Well, you do seem to like to stir up pointless arguments. As I have pointed out to you already, the necessary scientifically conducted listening tests have not been conducted so you cannot claim to hold the correct opinion.

Not strictly true. From the measurements there's no reason to assume it will sound any different or that it has a sound of its own in any form.

That's the current position on the matter when the science of electronics and hearing is applied.

The only way to overturn that position would be to do blind testing since if there is something different about it, it's down to something that cannot currently be measured (some people don't get just how unlikely that is to be the case).

I would very much like to see such testing done but based on my own (sighted) comparisons of Delta Sigma DACs and R-2R DACs I'd be happy to wager a generous amount on the test resulting in a null.

 

[BDWoody]

As you know there are two camps on this matter. Proper double blind listening tests would be required with experienced audiophiles taking part to scientifically prove the point either way and to my knowledge that hasn't been done yet.

All it would take is one properly done test to show our assumptions based on understanding rather than proof are all wrong. You can't prove the negative no matter how many tests show someone can't hear it.

Are you aware of any tests that claim to hear these unlikely audible differences that have been done with enough rigor to be credible? Anywhere?

Seems there are many making claims of sonic superiority, but none have developed any evidence. Wonder why.

I can't prove no one can jump 20' high. I can confidently claim it, and would bet a lot against it, even without 'proof.'

 

[Killingbeans]

Proper double blind listening tests would be required with experienced audiophiles taking part to scientifically prove the point either way and to my knowledge that hasn't been done yet.

All the research into the limitations of human hearing is invalid, because the test subjects were "normies" and not hand picked from the audiophile elite?

The few serious tests I've seen that accommodated this idea showed that the self-proclaimed "audiophiles" didn't fare better than Tom, Dick, and Harry. People who have had serious training (the no-fun kind) in detecting specific artifacts does better when the tests are aimed at those. No surprise there. And of course musicians find it easier to detect things related to their craft, even though it hardly ever correlates with enjoyability or preference.

Frankly, the notion, that the reason why people become audiophiles is that they have some extraordinaire listening talent that naturally makes them gravitate towards the hobby, makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

 

[SIY]

All the research into the limitations of human hearing is invalid, because the test subjects were "normies" and not hand picked from the audiophile elite?

The few serious tests I've seen that accommodated this idea showed that the self-proclaimed "audiophiles" didn't fare better than Tom, Dick, and Harry. People who have had serious training (the no-fun kind) in detecting specific artifacts does better when the tests are aimed at those. No surprise there. And of course musicians find it easier to detect things related to their craft, even though it hardly ever correlates with enjoyability or preference.

Frankly, the notion, that the reason why people become audiophiles is that they have some extraordinaire listening talent that naturally makes them gravitate towards the hobby, makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

Well, since the God of Analog couldn't hear the insertion of a 1980s ADC/DAC into the chain in the system of his choice when he couldn't peek, I think that question was put to bed decades ago.

"Put up or shut up." And I have strong doubts that people making these stupid arguments will do either.

 

[mccririck]

All the research into the limitations of human hearing is invalid, because the test subjects were "normies" and not hand picked from the audiophile elite?

Why would you use people who were not used to making such comparisons? It makes no sense.

 

[mccririck]

All it would take is one properly done test to show our assumptions based on understanding rather than proof are all wrong. You can't prove the negative no matter how many tests show someone can't hear it.

Are you aware of any tests that claim to hear these unlikely audible differences that have been done with enough rigor to be credible? Anywhere?

Seems there are many making claims of sonic superiority, but none have developed any evidence. Wonder why.

I can't prove no one can jump 20' high. I can confidently claim it, and would bet a lot against it, even without 'proof.'

You would probably need to conduct several tests and you may end up with statistically significant results. I wouldn't assume it to be unlikely, based on the fact people do seem to come out with the same findings for certain DACs.

 

[Killingbeans]

Why would you use people who were not used to making such comparisons? It makes no sense.

You didn't read the part below the quote? Being an "audiophile" is not a form of training is my point.

A comparison is useless when the reference is highly unreliable.

 

[Killingbeans]

I wouldn't assume it to be unlikely, based on the fact people do seem to come out with the same findings for certain DACs.

It's called confirmation bias...

 

[mccririck]

You didn't read the part below the quote? Being an "audiophile" is not a form of training is my point.

How the hell do you know? A concert musician is able to discern the nuances in music better than the layman. If you do something regularly you get better at it. Stop making assumptions.

 

[BDWoody]

You would probably need to conduct several tests and you may end up with statistically significant results. I wouldn't assume it to be unlikely, based on the fact people do seem to come out with the same findings for certain DACs.

When I say properly conducted test, it assumes enough trials to be statistically convincing.

People claim lots of things.

Is homeopathy likely valid, beyond the expected placebo effect because lots of people claim it to be so?

 

[mccririck]

It's called confirmation bias...

Even if the people have not heard each others opinions?

 

[mccririck]

When I say properly conducted test, it assumes enough trials to be statistically convincing.

People claim lots of things.

Is homeopathy likely valid, beyond the very valid placebo effect because lots of people claim it to be so?

We are not discussing anything other than audio here. You can take your homeopathy away with you.

 

[BDWoody]

We are not discussing anything other than audio here. You can take your homeopathy away with you.

Along with claims of audible differences that are just as unlikely to exist.

 

[mccririck]

Along with claims of audible differences that are just as unlikely to exist.

You just don't know that! Again comparing it to something else.

 

[Killingbeans]

Even if the people have not hear each others opinions?

What audiophile have ever bought a DAC without neither hearing nor reading a word about it, and then listening to it without ever seeing it or having any physical interaction with it?

 

[BDWoody]

You just don't know that! Again comparing it to something else.

Like I don't know you can't jump 20' high. I'd still bet a lot against it.

Comparing it to other claims that aren't accompanied by evidence beyond anecdotal. They are all in the same 'uh huh' category.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Well, since the God of Analog couldn't hear the insertion of a 1980s ADC/DAC into the chain in the system of his choice when he couldn't peek, I think that question was put to bed decades ago.

"Put up or shut up." And I have strong doubts that people making these stupid arguments will do either.

LP as source proved what?

 

[billyjoebob]

I have a fork that makes steak taste better. If you haven't compared, you can't know it doesn't.

All steaks taste the same!