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Octave Music Don Grusin High Resolution Music Analysis (Video)

Dogcoop

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But then you are not staying in native 24-bit! :D It is not native 24-bit processing anymore! :facepalm:

Windows audio pipeline uses shoggy 32-bit floating point just like macOS CoreAudio too.

HQPlayer uses 64-bit, 80-bit, 128-bit or arbitrary precision math for PCM as necessary.



If you start with 24-bit file, do processing and return to 24-bit it is no different.

OTOH, when your re-modulator is better than the original one, with lower noise floor, you are not adding any noise. It is just like taking 24-bit PCM, processing it and doing 32-bit output. Or if you for example upsample while doing the processing, you gain both increased dynamic range and increased banwdith. Just like with PCM too.

Then if we consider that even at DSD64 you can have ~180 dB dynamic range over the audio band, this is 36 dB more than 24-bit PCM has. If we then consider worst case 3 dB loss due to remodulation, we can see that you could do 12 remodulations before the noise floor reaches that of 24-bit PCM. If we then cosider that maximum acoustic SPL of recording would be 120 dB(SPL) with 30 dB(SPL) acoustic background noise (which is very quiet) we conclude that the recording would have 90 dB dynamic range. This means we have 90 dB of headroom in DSD64 and could afford 30 reductions of 3 dB before we reach the analog/acoustic noise floor.

At higher DSD rates we can reach 192 dB or more dynamic range. So we have even more headroom.

Since we are not stupid, we combine all DSP processing into one re-modulation step. Replay gain, speaker placement processing, digital room/headphone correction, headphone cross-feed, etc.

So in the end, we stay tens of dB below noise floors of analog recording or DAC performance.



Sure, a non-problem. We have all the nice GPUs and CPUs of today. So we can keep making better and better algorithms.



Just to be clear, I generally dislike use for marketing terms. Mixing PCM (non-marketing) and DSD (marketing) terms is disingenuous. So HQPlayer outputs SDM. And it happens to be compatible DSD DACs. It can also produce up to 257-level multi-level SDM if you like.

If you process DSD256 source to 44.1k x256 SDM output, there are no rate conversions whatsoever involved. Output is re-modulated with the modulator you have chosen, along with your chosen processing (EQ, mixing, etc), this is clear from the documentation. If you process DSD64 to 44.1k x256 SDM output, there is direct upsampling from 2.8224 MHz to 11.2896 MHz along with all your chosen DSP processing. No intermediate rates between.

As I explained before, as simplified example, if you mix two DSD streams together, without level adjustment, result is 3-level signal, equivalent of 1.585-bit binary data. So your output data may be "11", "10", "01" or "00" of which the two middle ones encode the same level, so total three levels. Or essentially a dual-bit stream.


This is much much better than the usual PCM exercise where you first have SDM output from the ADC, then converted to low PCM rates by the on-chip converter (not so great). Then you perform all kinds of processing on the PCM data you got. And then you send it to the DAC when it is again converted back to MHz rates using (poor) on-chip converter and modulated back to SDM using (poor) on-chip modulator. Totally unnecessary conversions with tiny cheap resource constrained on-chip DSPs.
I would love it if you could explain the audible advantages to me, as a listener, of your software. Something in rather simple English would be preferred. If you could point me to any tests or measurements that would confirm those advantages, it would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for not being able to understand the advantages from your highly technical answers.
Thanks.
 
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kongwee

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Check post https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ution-music-analysis-video.31620/post-1121531 to see how Roon processes DSD, in the same way other's do it. They need to transfer DSD to a multi bit format, so it's no longer pure DSD. If you think it can be done otherwise than they would appreciate you to join the Roon forum and explain them how. Please report back when they committed to a change request.
I am fine with DXD. My question again DSD and PCM data are binary, the same 0 and 1. While you can change the bits data in PCM, while you can't in DSD. It doesn't make sense. Everything and anything you can digitised, you can change bits data to direct everything and anything back to the state you want.
 

Miska

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It is the same sample data. No noise shaped, messed up ultrasonics that DSD is.

Except that it must become such "noise shaped, messed up ultrasonics" for the actual D/A conversion again. Unless you run R2R ladder DAC.

I am not going to waste a GPU or high power CPU for just playing music

What is the non-wasteful use for those? Playing computer games? Mining cryptocurrency?

I rather use the power to improve fidelity of the playback, both objectively and subjectively.

playing music especially since a superior audio format exists, i.e. PCM without that requirement

You realize what happens to your beloved PCM inside DAC chips poor tiny DSP?

But good to get you to finally accept that there is computational penalty for DSD. Was pulling teeth getting you to admit this earlier.

I don't think so, because I've been documenting and sharing my server builds in details. :D

Why do you think HQPlayer supports Nvidia's CUDA and AMD's ROCm for GPU offload?

Why do you think I recommend CPUs like i9-12900K?

you make a format conversion to superior PCM

No, I'm not doing format conversion to PCM, I have a separate DSP engine for doing SDM processing. Is multi-level SDM at 12 MHz rate equal to PCM? Is polar or cartesian presentation of the signal PCM? I guess also this text on this forum is PCM, it also consists of multiple bits.

Sending this data to R2R or similar two's complement binary data converter would just result in incomprehensible noise. So I don't think it could be called PCM.

But this has been discussed million times over the past decades, we have all agreed that DSD is indeed 1-bit PCM and we can all be happy! :p

But certainly doing DSP at 12 MHz is something else than fiddling with pathetic 44.1 kHz rate.

and then remodulate just as explained Roon does

To begin with, I don't do any rate conversions to 352.8k or similar rates to perform DSP operations, like Roon does. I have documented this many times, DSP is performed at the source rate, except in case when output is PCM, in which case it happens at 1/16th of the source rate after PCM conversion. If your source is DSD256 and output is 44.1 x64 SDM, then all DSP is performed first at 11.2896 MHz rate before re-modulation to 2.8224 MHz rate.


And we have not even started discussing yet about quality of the modulator used for (re-)modulation! Be it for PCM sources or DSD sources! That has indeed big impact on the quality too!
 
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Miska

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I would love it if you could explain the audible advantages to me, as a listener, of your software. Something in rather simple English would be preferred. If you could point me to any tests or measurements that would confirm those advantages, it would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for not being able to understand the advantages from your highly technical answers.

I have posted bunch of measurements on this, and other threads.

But what are audible benefits to you is something you need to figure out yourself by listening. There's a free trial, so trying it out doesn't cost more than the effort.

Most people use HQPlayer for upsampling PCM source to DSD.

But using higher rates and suitable noise-shaper can improve performance of R2R ladder DACs as well.

Like Holo Audio, 1 kHz -120 dB 24-bit TPDF dithered input:
HoloSpring3_1k_705k6_-120dB_TPDF_24b.png


Typical low level linearity problem of R2R ladder.

Which we can linearize by utilizing only the linear range of the ladder and noise shaping:
HoloSpring3_1k_705k6_-120dB_LNS15_20b.png
 
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Dogcoop

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I have posted bunch of measurements on this, and other threads.

But what are audible benefits to you is something you need to figure out yourself by listening. There's a free trial, so trying it out doesn't cost more than the effort.
So you are not or cannot answer my sincere question. As the developer, I was sure you would be aware of what problems with
”good old red book cd“ you were attempting to address. I guess not. Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to reply.
 

Head_Unit

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Counter by placement or a bit of treatment. This is for music listening. For AV, you need DRC.
I'm going to postulate based on some measurements I've seen and done that placement likely won't get you flat bass. And any sane treatment won't affect the bass at all. Doesn't matter if you are listening to stereo music, or surround music, or movies.

For instance, this below.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/jl-audio-fathom-f110v2-powered-subwoofer-measurements
My REW measurements aren't here but they are sure not flat at all before correction. Afterwards much better though not perfect either. I will agree "xx" type listeners will never do room correction however not because it is not needed. I believe it is usually because of a combination of (a) a kind of almost superstitious fear of digitalization-itis, (b) just not wanting to think about the room not being perfect. Oh and (c) if one is running just stereo, there is very little equipment with room correction.
 

dc655321

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But what are audible benefits to you is something you need to figure out yourself by listening. There's a free trial, so trying it out doesn't cost more than the effort.

FFS… Really? The “just listen for yourself” card?

If you had something, anything, tangible you would’ve trotted that out eons ago and become filthy rich.
 

Dogcoop

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Most people use HQPlayer for upsampling PCM source to DSD
And as the developer you should be able to tell me the audible benefit you have achieved. What is the “problem” you are fixing with upsampling. I am not technically savvy enough to understand your measurements, so, I would like a simple explanation of what benefits it provides. And if your best answer is: try it yourself, then I will not take HQPlayer as a serious improvement on my plain old dac.
 

Miska

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So you are not or cannot answer my sincere question. As the developer, I was sure you would be aware of what problems with
”good old red book cd“ you were attempting to address. I guess not. Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Of course, for that reason there are apodizing filters and such.

And as the developer you should be able to tell me the audible benefit you have achieved.

Not a suitable topic for this forum. :D:facepalm:
 
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amirm

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What is the non-wasteful use for those? Playing computer games? Mining cryptocurrency?
What? You think any level of computing is free and is just sitting around for you to waste its cycles on a deficient format?
 
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amirm

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No, I'm not doing format conversion to PCM, I have a separate DSP engine for doing SDM processing. Is multi-level SDM at 12 MHz rate equal to PCM?
Yes, it is not 1-bit DSD. Your claim was that you provide digital effects for DSD natively which was incorrect. You covert DSD to another format that is much like PCM with multiple levels, then you requantize back to DSD. You absolutely attempted to mislead the readership on what you were doing internally. Keep such stunts for other fora where people don't understand signal processing.
 

Miska

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What? You think any level of computing is free and is just sitting around for you to waste its cycles on a deficient format?

Yeah, I have the computers anyway. So why I wouldn't use them for playing music while answering these important questions on this forum as well? While waiting compiler building my new code. Or simulating DSP + DAC behaviors in Octave. Or writing new algorithms. Or responding to the emails.
 
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amirm

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But certainly doing DSP at 12 MHz is something else than fiddling with pathetic 44.1 kHz rate.
Huh? Where did 44.1 kHz come about? PCM can go to hundreds of Kilohertz in countless platforms and DACs. That is DSD's competition, not 16/44.1.
 
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amirm

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Yeah, I have the computers anyway. So why I wouldn't use them for playing music while answering these important questions on this forum as well?
You do whatever you want. Just don't tell us that we are similarly situated and have CPU and GPU resources sitting around for you to suck up and waste power and generate heat. All to work on a deficient format which was never designed for anything other than one time delivery. 30 years ago we didn't think about processing those streams but today, we do and PCM is the right answer seeing how 99% of the world has standardized on it.
 

Miska

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Yes, it is not 1-bit DSD. Your claim was that you provide digital effects for DSD natively which was incorrect. You covert DSD to another format that is much like PCM with multiple levels, then you requantize back to DSD. You absolutely attempted to mislead the readership on what you were doing internally. Keep such stunts for other fora where people don't understand signal processing.

You are trying to put words into my mouth. How low can you go?
 

Miska

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You do whatever you want. Just don't tell us that we are similarly situated and have CPU and GPU resources sitting around for you to suck up and waste power and generate heat. All to work on a deficient format which was never designed for anything other than one time delivery. 30 years ago we didn't think about processing those streams but today, we do and PCM is the right answer seeing how 99% of the world has standardized on it.

And you consistently like to keep you head in the bush thinking that any mainstream AD or DA converters natively use PCM.

That has not been the case, especially for ADC for decades.

I rather use formats that DACs can natively use to convert to analog without performing additional DSP on those. Wasting energy and producing noise to run poor DSP.
 
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amirm

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And we have not even started discussing yet about quality of the modulator used for (re-)modulation! Be it for PCM sources or DSD sources! That has indeed big impact on the quality too!
Big impact on DSD, sure, you better learn about such obscure things as modulator order, overflow, etc as you screw around with that format. PCM absolutely does not require any of that and produces incredibly clean output with none of the outrageous noise shaping that DSD forces upon us.
 

Dogcoop

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Of course, for that reason there are apodizing filters and such.



Not a suitable topic for this forum. :D:facepalm:
That’s all this forum is about. Actual facts, be they measurements, test results, or peer reviewed theories. You are just playing a game of intellectual obfuscation. This forum’s purpose is to shed light on the dark corners of the “audiophile” world. Your answers to my questions show me that you inhabit the darkest of those corners. I no longer need an answer to my questions. Good luck with your venture. Have a nice night.
 

Miska

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Big impact on DSD, sure, you better learn about such obscure things as modulator order, overflow, etc as you screw around with that format. PCM absolutely does not require any of that and produces incredibly clean output with none of the outrageous noise shaping that DSD forces upon us.

Except that all your beloved ADCs and DACs that give out and take in PCM do precisely that outrageous noise shaping in their internal DSP. And you pretend that it doesn't exist.

You better learn about modern converter architecture first.
 

Miska

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That’s all this forum is about. Actual facts, be they measurements, test results, or peer reviewed theories.

Yes, exactly, not about what I hear. Or what you hear.
 
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