Apple Music vs Tidal

[Liya]

I'm confused. Where does AirPlay enters into what you have explained? You are talking about playback (Audirvana), not transmission. AirPlay is a transmission protocol.

Do you have any means to broadcast a file via AirPlay and receive it digitally? That is the only way to test what is the AirPlay format/quality.

Yes, I do have Cambridge CXN v2.
So when I stream Audirvana via Airplay to CXN the display of CXN showing me ALAC 16.44.1kHz regardless of what I play.
And I play FLAC 24/48, ALAC 16.44.1 and 255AAC.

 

[Liya]

PS. You keep writing 255AAC, what does it mean?

255AAC is lossy compression.
AAC = codec
255 = bitrate

 

[sarumbear]

So when I stream Audirvana via Airplay to CXN the display of CXN showing me ALAC 16.44.1kHz regardless of what I play.

That is what you should have. ALAC is lossless and AirPlay is only 44.1/16.

What is it that you still are not sure???

 

[sarumbear]

255AAC is lossy compression.
AAC = codec
255 = bitrate

Never heard that acronym. Google haven't either By itself you don't know the sampling type.

 

[Liya]

Never heard that acronym. Google haven't either By itself you don't know the sampling type.

Advanced Audio Coding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sarumbear]

Advanced Audio Coding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course I know AAC but you are creating a new one as 255AAC. That is a new acronym that it seems only you use. Just 3100 instances on Google and none seems to be related to AAC or audio.

255AAC - Google Search

 

[Liya]

Of course I know AAC but you are creating a new one as 255AAC. That is a new acronym that it seems only you use. Just 3100 instances on Google and none seems to be related to AAC or audio.

255AAC - Google Search

In earlier posts I have used 256AAC. Looks like 255AAC was a typo.

 

[sarumbear]

In earlier posts I have used 256AAC. Looks like 255AAC was a typo.

May I advise to write it as 256kbps AAC so that it makes sense. Because even 256AAC is not a common.

256AAC - Google Search

Thank you for listening

Anyway, are you know satisfied that as CXN reports AirPlay is a lossless transmission protocol fixed to 44.1/16 on audio devices and 48/24 om video devices via HDMI output?

 

[Liya]

Yes, but more than anything, I was making a comment on what you have said about RME 'bit test'. That made me think about it.
Thing is, that you will always see 16/44.1 on the display of RME while using Airplay regardless what you throw at it.
Is this correct?

 

[sarumbear]

Yes, but more than anything, I was making a comment on what you have said about RME 'bit test'. That made me think about it.
Thing is, that you will always see 16/44.1 on the display of RME while using Airplay regardless what you throw at it.
Is this correct?

Of course! That is the design. AirPlay use only one format, ALAC. Anything else fed into it is converted (within limits).

If you send a 44.1/16 PCM audio data via AirPlay you get the same data back. There is no loss. You play a known PCM file and RME monitors to see if there are any missing or wrong bits. If the transmission is lossless there won't be. It will then report bit perfect.

Any format audio > [Sample Converter] > [Transmitter] >-- AirPlay broadcast (ALAC 44.1./16) --> [Receiver] > Always 44.1/16 audio

 

[drmevo]

Excellent thread. Is there any data on whether AppleTV gen 3 via optical output is lossless?

Also, for anyone considering Apple Music, I think it’s worth keeping in mind that Apple really limits your playback options. You don’t get the kind of integration with streamers that you get with other services - you pretty much have to use AirPlay outside of a couple of exceptions (AppleTV, HomePod, I think one of the Sonos products? There might be a couple others I’m not aware of). That would be fine, except AirPlay is fundamentally broken IMO in that you can’t force it to stay on the content you originally chose to stream. ANY audio or video content on a web page, Facebook, whatever you might open after starting AirPlay will take over your music and it’s extremely annoying. Yes, I could use a dedicated old iPhone or something for this purpose, set it it play and leave it, but why, when I have a perfectly good one in my pocket at all times?

Sorry for the rant, but I actually submitted feedback to Apple on this issue today because it’s mind-boggling to me that they think anyone would want this.

 

[sarumbear]

Excellent thread. Is there any data on whether AppleTV gen 3 via optical output is lossless?

All AirPlay devices are lossless! For the last page I was trying to show how.

 

[drmevo]

All AirPlay devices are lossless! For the last page I was trying to show how.

In researching this over the past few weeks, I kept seeing that AppleTV might not be. I wasn’t sure if you just meant via Airport Express. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Zensō]

Excellent thread. Is there any data on whether AppleTV gen 3 via optical output is lossless?

Also, for anyone considering Apple Music, I think it’s worth keeping in mind that Apple really limits your playback options. You don’t get the kind of integration with streamers that you get with other services - you pretty much have to use AirPlay outside of a couple of exceptions (AppleTV, HomePod, I think one of the Sonos products? There might be a couple others I’m not aware of). That would be fine, except AirPlay is fundamentally broken IMO in that you can’t force it to stay on the content you originally chose to stream. ANY audio or video content on a web page, Facebook, whatever you might open after starting AirPlay will take over your music and it’s extremely annoying. Yes, I could use a dedicated old iPhone or something for this purpose, set it it play and leave it, but why, when I have a perfectly good one in my pocket at all times?

Sorry for the rant, but I actually submitted feedback to Apple on this issue today because it’s mind-boggling to me that they think anyone would want this.

Apple is unlikely to ever change Airplay to a direct streaming format similar to Spotify Connect or Roon RAAT. The reason is that Airplay was designed from the start to stream any content on the device, regardless of the source. This seems counter-intuitive to audiophiles who desire uninterrupted, bit perfect streams, but for most people it provides an enormous advantage, enabling the ability to stream from the browser, YouTube, Netflix, BandCamp, SoundCloud, etc., plus the streaming services. A majority of Apple users undoubtedly view this as a positive feature, not a problem to be solved.

 

[Liya]

What we really need is an Apple made, dedicated music streamer.

 

[drmevo]

Apple is unlikely to ever change Airplay to a direct streaming format similar to Spotify Connect or Roon RAAT. The reason is that Airplay was designed from the start to stream any content on the device, regardless of the source. This seems counter-intuitive to audiophiles who desire uninterrupted, bit perfect streams, but for most people it provides an enormous advantage, enabling the ability to stream from the browser, YouTube, Netflix, BandCamp, SoundCloud, etc., plus the streaming services. A majority of Apple users undoubtedly view this as a positive feature, not an issue to be solved.

Right, but there is no Apple Music integration with just about anything, so that’s one issue.

And I agree that’s great AirPlay can do all those things - I’ve used it for years for such purposes. I remember streaming video from one of the early apps for The Masters from my iPhone 3GS to an old AppleTV and all the other things you could cast before content providers started limiting what you could send over AirPlay. It was awesome. But I can’t imagine a use case where someone would want whatever they are watching/listening to interrupted automatically by other content (usually ads or embedded videos) that happens to be in a browser or other app. Let me decide - make it manual to switch source content, or at least a prompt. Or, just give us a way to stream Apple Music that doesn’t require clunky workarounds like a dedicated iOS device that we can’t use for anything else while it’s playing. Every other service has that.

What we really need is an Apple made, dedicated music streamer.

I would happily buy that.

 

[sarumbear]

Right, but there is no Apple Music integration with just about anything, so that’s one issue.

I assume you meant, outside the Apple ecosystem? Otherwise Apple Music is integrated almost all Apple devices.

...just give us a way to stream Apple Music that doesn’t require clunky workarounds like a dedicated iOS device that we can’t use for anything else while it’s playing. Every other service has that.

You can start playing Apple Music and transfer it to most Apple device where it continue to play, leaving your device free. You can even do that with voice control (Siri). Apple Music even has a tier that only works with voice.

I daily set on my desk and say "Hey Siri, play me my work playlist" and my HomePod Mini on the desk starts playing. When I'm about to break for lunch I say "Hey Siri, transfer to sitting room" and the music starts playing on my Apple TV, which is connected to the audio system (which then wakes up).

Will you call that a "clunky workaround"?

 

[Liya]

I guess this is exactly what Apple want. You move from homepod to apple tv to iphone to ipad to apple car play to apple watch... all day long. When people say Apple Music isn't integrated, what the mean is the level of integration like Spotify, Tidal or Qobuz so you don't have to buy more Apple products to listen to music. But even then many would welcome Apple made dedicated music streamer.
If you don't own all these Apple devices (and AV processor or HDMI dac - not very common), the integration of Apple Music into hifi rig is clunky.

 

[drmevo]

I assume you meant, outside the Apple ecosystem? Otherwise Apple Music is integrated almost all Apple devices.

Yes, that is what I meant - you can't put Apple Music on a Raspberry Pi, or have it on a Bluesound Node, or AVR, etc. The other streaming services almost all offer that.

You can start playing Apple Music and transfer it to most Apple device where it continue to play, leaving your device free. You can even do that with voice control (Siri). Apple Music even has a tier that only works with voice.

I daily set on my desk and say "Hey Siri, play me my work playlist" and my HomePod Mini on the desk starts playing. When I'm about to break for lunch I say "Hey Siri, transfer to sitting room" and the music starts playing on my Apple TV, which is connected to the audio system (which then wakes up).

Will you call that a "clunky workaround"?

Right, I specifically mentioned the AppleTV and HomePod as the exceptions up in post #111 As far as I can tell, those are the only two devices (plus a Sonos device possibly?) that stream Apple Music directly, and that allow you to start from your phone and transfer the stream to those devices.

I have no doubt the HomePod Mini is great for what it is, but I'm sure you would agree it is a "lifestyle" speaker and no replacement for a full-size stereo set up. Nothing against that type of speaker, I use (a different) one every day and it's excellent. Likewise, AppleTV is very good for what it is, but how am I supposed to hook that up to a stereo system with no HDMI/I2S input? And when there are on-screen status messages I need to deal with (about updates, network issues, whatever) how am I supposed to see them if I don't have a TV connected to that system? Yes, I could get a device to extract audio from HDMI and output it to S/PDIF, but it's just another thing in the chain, another point of failure, etc.

So in your use case, no, it is not clunky at all. But for someone who doesn't have those devices, the options to play Apple Music through a stereo system are limited and clunky, and that is not the case for other streaming services. My frustration is that it doesn't have to be that way - Apple does so much well, and then there are these massive impediments. And I'm no Apple hater - I have AirPods Max and I would recommend them wholeheartedly to anyone in the Apple ecosystem. They just need a better solution for getting Apple Music to a stereo system (or fix AirPlay).

 

[telemike]

Would be a nice for Apple to make an AppleStream like Apple TV device for stereo systems with RCA and digital outs