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"Trusting Audio Companies that DON'T Submit Products for 3rd Party Testing"
- Thread starter VintageFlanker
- Start date
This whole "We vs GR Research" situation is just meh. There's weird things that Danny does and there's great things he does. I know when he tests speakers, he sometimes does the "What free mod can improve this speaker" . Like for example, taking off the tweeter grille for the ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2's and taking off the "PowerPort" off the Polk S20, stuff like that.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
This would have not happen if he did not have call the whole objectivist camp "Flat Earthers" to begin with...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #4
For better context, the video Danny posted few days before Gene's one:
Didn't watch it entirely yet, but the first minutes are surprisingly promising...
Edit: slipping starts at 17:00.
Edit: slipping starts at 17:00.
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I had watched Gene's video a couple of days ago. I thought it lacked focus and was self-serving.
I just watched Danny's video. There is some truism in what he says but then it becomes completely self-serving. I have seen that system behind him and his claims that it is the best in the world. Who says it is? Him and Ron? Show us some measurements. Some aspects of design. Not just claim it is the best because he worked on it for years. You know how many high-end audiophiles there are that say the same thing about their systems? Countless ones. I am pretty sure he has no EQ in there so it is guaranteed to have room modes. So no, I have no motivation to go and listen to that system.
And then he says nonsense like soundstage depth changing with cables and DACs and we all know what to think of that.
Then there is the bit about needing 'room treatment' to get good sound. He badly needs to read Dr. Toole's book and get an education there. I have been to shows in tiny suites like Andrew Jones showing his speakers that the sound absolutely delighted. You don't need to slap diffusers and bass traps everywhere and pretend that improves the sound. I have not heard one thing from Danny that indicates he knows the science there.
Yes, if we have an empty, dedicated room, we put in acoustic treatments. But in everyday listening spaces, we can get superb sounding systems. No need for pretend acoustic treatment.
The bit about youtubers doing it right by making money from views is also wrong. They get there with ability to get loaner equipment. Without loaner equipment, they can't do reviews. So they are absolutely tied to manufacturers and its shows in them liking everything. Of course this is self-serving to scratch the back of Ron who produces his videos for him.
The worst part is Danny not sending his speakers for testing. I had to spend a ton of money to get his speakers built and tested. I shouldn't have had to do that. He designs speakers using measurements. He damn well needs to be ready for them to be measured. Not just listened to by some virgins on some tropical island. We are talking about bookshelf speakers for heaven's sake. These are not 100K high-end audio speakers where the manufacturer can make demands on where they go and get listened to. The only reason to be afraid of sending his speakers to be measured is because he is not confident of his work.
Now if he had tuned his speakers by ear, that would be one thing. But he doesn't. He does it with rough measurements. And he doesn't provide any listening tests results post mod. Well, then let us measure them.
So I walked away disliking both videos and to some extent, people behind them. They should stop talking about reviewers as a cover to talk about themselves. Go do something useful for customers of these products.
I just watched Danny's video. There is some truism in what he says but then it becomes completely self-serving. I have seen that system behind him and his claims that it is the best in the world. Who says it is? Him and Ron? Show us some measurements. Some aspects of design. Not just claim it is the best because he worked on it for years. You know how many high-end audiophiles there are that say the same thing about their systems? Countless ones. I am pretty sure he has no EQ in there so it is guaranteed to have room modes. So no, I have no motivation to go and listen to that system.
And then he says nonsense like soundstage depth changing with cables and DACs and we all know what to think of that.
Then there is the bit about needing 'room treatment' to get good sound. He badly needs to read Dr. Toole's book and get an education there. I have been to shows in tiny suites like Andrew Jones showing his speakers that the sound absolutely delighted. You don't need to slap diffusers and bass traps everywhere and pretend that improves the sound. I have not heard one thing from Danny that indicates he knows the science there.
Yes, if we have an empty, dedicated room, we put in acoustic treatments. But in everyday listening spaces, we can get superb sounding systems. No need for pretend acoustic treatment.
The bit about youtubers doing it right by making money from views is also wrong. They get there with ability to get loaner equipment. Without loaner equipment, they can't do reviews. So they are absolutely tied to manufacturers and its shows in them liking everything. Of course this is self-serving to scratch the back of Ron who produces his videos for him.
The worst part is Danny not sending his speakers for testing. I had to spend a ton of money to get his speakers built and tested. I shouldn't have had to do that. He designs speakers using measurements. He damn well needs to be ready for them to be measured. Not just listened to by some virgins on some tropical island. We are talking about bookshelf speakers for heaven's sake. These are not 100K high-end audio speakers where the manufacturer can make demands on where they go and get listened to. The only reason to be afraid of sending his speakers to be measured is because he is not confident of his work.
Now if he had tuned his speakers by ear, that would be one thing. But he doesn't. He does it with rough measurements. And he doesn't provide any listening tests results post mod. Well, then let us measure them.
So I walked away disliking both videos and to some extent, people behind them. They should stop talking about reviewers as a cover to talk about themselves. Go do something useful for customers of these products.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
Sure.
Would you explain how Gene's speech and purpose differ from yours...? I don't get it. Like, at all.
Funny he doesn't mention ASR on the doing measurements club, I bet he is thinking about it but for whatever reasons doesn't want to say it, so much about being friends and all that. Even if someone doesn't like Amir's approach/rating on how he interprets measurements, they are still there and anyone can draw his own conclusions.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
There's nothing funny, I'm afraid. Gene mentioned Amir's work several times in videos and YT comments, he even created an account here.
I remember him asking Amir for doing some video talk, which never happened.
Why, and why Gene's account disappeared from ASR? I have no clue. But I don't want to put my finger on some drama I wasn't aware about...
No theme Reviews is constantly bashing ASR, Topping and SMSL. He has an issue with Amirm measuring system. I asked him if he had a Vendetta against ASR and he stated "perhaps you mean I hate the crap they regurgitate" in which case, That is the correct summary of my feelings towards them".
The only way to get truth is if you didn't pay for the product and the one giving it to you for review is not affiliated with the manufacturer or distributor in any way.
That way you have removed the two main biases. First, i bought it, so it must be good or i made a mistake. Second, i owe the manufacturer a favorable review because otherwise he might not send gear my way again.
But let's chill out, we are not talking about life changing stuff here after all.
Mistake maybe? I feel Gene and Amirm are aligned on this one.
He bolted out of here after being asked about the Starke amp they had 'reviewed.' He asked me to delete his account so I did. Post that he has been saying our environment here is "toxic."
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
OK, but how is that related with this thread? Who the f*c* is No Theme Review anyway?
Alright, thanks for the clarification. I missed that part...
I don't need any drama, plenty of that going on the world right now. Not mentioning ASR was a logical inconsistency and I pointed it out. Like his couch being too near to the tv
OP
- Thread Starter
- #14
You've got the reason two posts above.
I've watched many of Dannys videos, he and NTR are in the same boat diagreeing with amirm measuring of instruments. NTR has over 10k followers and he reviews audio products.OK, but how is that related with this thread? Who the f*c* is No Theme Review anyway?
Alright, thanks for the clarification. I missed that part...
You have to ask? Look at how we are different:
1. Vast majority of what I test comes from owners, not manufacturers. For Gene, it is all manufacturers. In that regard, he is guilty of some of the things Danny mentions.
2. There is no advertising here, nor sponsorships, nor infomercials for product releases from companies, etc. Gene does all of that. Again, Danny said and complained about some of this.
3. I put nothing behind pay wall. Patreon members don't get early access, or access to stuff that every member doesn't get. Gene does both so you can't say your goal is to educate when it costs money to get that education.
4. My testing of electronics is far more extensive than his and my bar for performance is far above his.
5. He makes a living from his activities. I am fortunately enough to not have to do that. This gives me luxuries that he can't take advantage of.
6. I don't do any fluff write-ups looking like "reviews." He has a few people do this in both text and video. This is what got him in the crosshair of our membership where they wrote a glowing "review" of the Starke amp which was never measured or properly evaluated.
7. He covers functionality of home theater products extensively (for audio). I do not. My focus is on performance.
All of this means that any speech I give, will be quite different than his.
This is not to say that he doesn't produce good content that I and members like and enjoy. This is why I watch a lot of his videos when he has invited guests.
It was the oddest thing really. No one does measurements more than us. One measurement a day. We are also much larger than his site. It makes no sense to pretend we don't exist and struggle to think of who else does measurements.
Vict0r
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Amir just gotta keep Amiring and let all the drama queens fight among themselves. Insecure and unreasonable individuals often become hostile when confronted with reasonable confrontations and inconvenient truths. Don't let that distract or disgruntle; ASR's growing succes speaks for itself.
And yeah, sure, we might be a bit of an echo chamber now and then. I can see that. The measurements don't lie, though.
And yeah, sure, we might be a bit of an echo chamber now and then. I can see that. The measurements don't lie, though.
JaccoW
Senior Member
The first five minutes are already grating. I came across it after Andrew Robinson made a post (the cutout guy on the left of the thumbnail who is not even in the video) about it where he basically said he was not interested in entering that drama and would only review items that get sent to him, because his home is his reference.For better context, the video Danny posted few days before Gene's one:
Didn't watch it entirely yet, but the first minutes are surprisingly promising...
Edit: slipping starts at 17:00.
Danny reminds me of some of the developers I used to work together with who were often right but lacked the people skills to communicate their opinions in a way that did not immediately made people hostile to them. The good ones however would actually be excited if you came to them showing how their software had some glaring bugs in them. Danny however does not strike me as someone like that.
Then again, I work in QA with a preference for the more consultant side of things, so I enjoy working with both types.
Andrew Robinson has never claimed to be part of the objectivist camp and his reviews focus more on looks and the user experience followed by him and his wife giving their own separate opinions. And often they differ because they have different tastes.
Some of the reviewers on Youtube are entertainment. It's when they start using overly vague words to describe how something sounds you should be worried. Darko Audio and The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel are both guilty of that. The former lies more on the entertainment side of things for me whereas Beekhuyzen has fully embraced the audiophile lingo.
But hey, that's just my opinion.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Gotta agree with Amir on this one. Gene's video is rambling, jumps from subject to subject and he vainly attempts to drive a narrative that falls flat.
After watching it, there's little to no chance I'd ever bother with reading/watching anything from Audioholics.
Pity, because I think he's mostly a good guy (sadly, clearly jaded by his 'decades' in the industry...), but clearly wants to maintain a finger in every pie on the gravy train he can. In terms of 'trustworthiness', the video does little to reinforce his standing and in fact may serve to do the polar opposite.
After watching it, there's little to no chance I'd ever bother with reading/watching anything from Audioholics.
Pity, because I think he's mostly a good guy (sadly, clearly jaded by his 'decades' in the industry...), but clearly wants to maintain a finger in every pie on the gravy train he can. In terms of 'trustworthiness', the video does little to reinforce his standing and in fact may serve to do the polar opposite.
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