Help me find my next amp for my newly adapted "scientific mind-set"

[Mehdiem]

Hi Folks. I’m planning to upgrade my amplifier with my newly adopted “scientific” perspective.
Please first let me know if I understand this mindset correctly, and then help me choose an appropriate amp.

What this “scientific mindset” means to me is that instead of going after amps with warm, bright, good soundstage, bad soundstage with different “sound signature”, and still be worried about whether they would match my speakers; I choose a good solid, natural amp (with acceptable measurement) and then add my own EQ. This way any amp would match any speaker by tweaking EQ, hence, I make it warm, bright, wider soundstage, narrower soundstage, etc to my liking! Do I get this concept right?

If this assumption is correct then, let me find the best possible amp (before hitting the diminishing return)

My setup is as follows:

- Bluesound Node as Streamer
- RME ADI-2 as an EQ and Preamp
- Yamaha Integrated Amp (NR602) that will be replaced by the new amp
- KEF LS50 as speakers
- KEF Q400b as Sub

A few criteria:

- I don’t want to get into DIY, at this time, and prefer a commercially made reputable, solid, brand that hopefully has good residual value
- I have the following floor speakers in my pipe-line (B&W 702 S2, 803 D4, KEF Reference 3), so the amp should be capable of handling it on its own, or alternatively can be bridged with its sibling (when I upgraded the speakers) to function as a mono-block.
- My speakers said it to be non-efficient so, I was told that I should get a with high current. How can I determine that an amp has a high current?
- I live in Canada

A few uncertainties:
- If I use RME ADI-2 as my pre-amp can I get the most of my amp quality? Or do I lose in quality in compassion by adding another pre-amp? (I only stream so I don’t need phono, line in, etc)
- can I connect my sub to the amp if the amp doesn’t have sub input? In that case, is it safe to do so?
- based on the abuse mindset can I be sure no matter what amp I get, as long as it meets the measurement criteria, will sound good to my speaker just after tweaking the EQ, so I could buy it without even auditioning it?
- do you think this upgrade would have a noticeable impact, as compared to my current amp?

Candidates:

To the best of my research, my good candidate here is NAD C298. People in this forum talk about it. They say it has Purifi, and I suppose it should sound good, I don’t know much about this. Another alternative is Benchmark, or PS Audio?

I don’t want to overspend but I can go as high as needed to get something “for life”

I’m open to your suggestions and perspective.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

One thing I can say is… If it’s a competent design, and running within spec, and those specs are decent… you’ll never hear a difference out of any amplifier. That’s a good thing, because they’re supposed to be transparent, and if they measure well and they’re not broken they will all sound the same.

I have the new Pascal class D amps, well they’re a new amp to me within the last few years, I also have a nearly 30 year old set of classe audio monoblocks, as well as a B&K multi channel amp, and a Parasound HCA1500a 2-channel amp. Blindfolded level matched you would never know which one is playing.

All this being said, do your homework, pick something that measures reasonably well within your budget, and you’re good to go.

 

[Doodski]

To the best of my research, my good candidate here is NAD C298.

A very good choice. Heaps of power and efficient too. As a added bonus it is bridgeable so if you want even more power you can buy a second one.

 

[Purité Audio]

Benchmark not, never ever PSAudio, hypex/purifi/neurochrome all superb and not too expensive, or buy active KEFs.
Keith

 

[Cooltool]

Hi Folks. I’m planning to upgrade my amplifier with my newly adopted “scientific” perspective.
Please first let me know if I understand this mindset correctly, and then help me choose an appropriate amp.

What this “scientific mindset” means to me is that instead of going after amps with warm, bright, good soundstage, bad soundstage with different “sound signature”, and still be worried about whether they would match my speakers; I choose a good solid, natural amp (with acceptable measurement) and then add my own EQ. This way any amp would match any speaker by tweaking EQ, hence, I make it warm, bright, wider soundstage, narrower soundstage, etc to my liking! Do I get this concept right?

If this assumption is correct then, let me find the best possible amp (before hitting the diminishing return)

My setup is as follows:

- Bluesound Node as Streamer
- RME ADI-2 as an EQ and Preamp
- Yamaha Integrated Amp (NR602) that will be replaced by the new amp
- KEF LS50 as speakers
- KEF Q400b as Sub

A few criteria:

- I don’t want to get into DIY, at this time, and prefer a commercially made reputable, solid, brand that hopefully has good residual value
- I have the following floor speakers in my pipe-line (B&W 702 S2, 803 D4, KEF Reference 3), so the amp should be capable of handling it on its own, or alternatively can be bridged with its sibling (when I upgraded the speakers) to function as a mono-block.
- My speakers said it to be non-efficient so, I was told that I should get a with high current. How can I determine that an amp has a high current?
- I live in Canada

A few uncertainties:
- If I use RME ADI-2 as my pre-amp can I get the most of my amp quality? Or do I lose in quality in compassion by adding another pre-amp? (I only stream so I don’t need phono, line in, etc)
- can I connect my sub to the amp if the amp doesn’t have sub input? In that case, is it safe to do so?
- based on the abuse mindset can I be sure no matter what amp I get, as long as it meets the measurement criteria, will sound good to my speaker just after tweaking the EQ, so I could buy it without even auditioning it?
- do you think this upgrade would have a noticeable impact, as compared to my current amp?

Candidates:

To the best of my research, my good candidate here is NAD C298. People in this forum talk about it. They say it has Purifi, and I suppose it should sound good, I don’t know much about this. Another alternative is Benchmark, or PS Audio?

I don’t want to overspend but I can go as high as needed to get something “for life”

I’m open to your suggestions and perspective.

I use RME ADI-2 DAC FS with NAD C298 and ProAc SM100 in a small room…..pretty happy so far

 

[Willem]

Welcome to the group. I would suggest any well made Hypex or Purifi based power amplifier will do the job. Which one in particular will depend on your power requirements, location and budget.

 

[Mehdiem]

Welcome to the group. I would suggest any well made Hypex or Purifi based power amplifier will do the job. Which one in particular will depend on your power requirements, location and budget.

Thanks Willem.

So far I found NAD298 and M23 with Purifi. I don’t know of any other brand just yet. Could you make some suggestion with the Hypex and Purifi?

- My budget could go up to $3k and if necessary more if the difference is considerable
- power: I’m thinking more or less around 200w/ch @8ohm
- location Canada

 

[Mehdiem]

I use RME ADI-2 DAC FS with NAD C298 and ProAc SM100 in a small room…..pretty happy so far

That’s great. What did you use before C298? And before purchase what other alternatives did you consider?

Did you find any reliable tested measurement for C298? I see that it wasn’t tested I’m Thai forum just yet?

I have also read, in this forum, some people concern about continuous gain, that could result in imbalance compared to M23. What’s your thoughts?

 

[DanielT]

A very good choice. Heaps of power and efficient too. As a added bonus it is bridgeable so if you want even more power you can buy a second one.

Perhaps. Here is one that is not as enthusiastic regardning NAD C 298 :

Morello:

Note that the measurements on this Class-D device are performed with the low-pass filter (fo = 25 kHz) Audio Precision AUX-0025 connected between the output of the NAD C 298 (amp) and the input of the analyzer, so all THD measurements are irrelevant above about 6 kHz. It surprises me that Atkinson does not limit the graphs to just this.

The reason for the measurement procedure is that the analyzer from Audio Precision that Atkinson uses does not handle the copious amount of high-frequency debris typical class-D throws out. What I object to is that the THD data is still reported up to 20 kHz, even though the data is not relevant above 6-7 kHz. It is also obvious that very many readers of tests have not reflected on this, which of course is fully understandable.

THD is a measure of an amp's nonlinearities - quadratic, cubic and higher order terms in the transmission characteristics. The same terms lead to intermodulation distortion. If you want a correct picture of that amps distortion, the bandwidth when measuring THD up to 20 kHz must be at least 80 kHz, which means that harmonics up to and including order four are included.

Nad C298 shows high THD at treble frequencies above 10 kHz, even though the numbers are "beautified" due to the low-pass filter used in the THD measurement

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - NAD C 298

NAD C 298 power amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

... then it happened again, measurements regarding class D amp and how to interpret the results.

 

[Willem]

The NAD is Purifi Eigentakt based, so for an ASR review see here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/ What more is there to say?
Boxem in Luxemburg do a very nice implementation as well, but I don't know how the price ends up once at the other side of the pond: https://boxem-audio.eu/en/stereo-am...k/8-body_color-textured_matte_dark_anthracite

 

[DanielT]

The NAD is Purifi Eigentakt based, so for an ASR review see here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/ What more is there to say?
Boxem in Luxemburg do a very nice implementation as well, but I don't know how the price ends up once at the other side of the pond: https://boxem-audio.eu/en/stereo-am...k/8-body_color-textured_matte_dark_anthracite

Class D based amp has become really good nowadays.

As long as they are measured correctly when they are to be evaluated,.. with sufficient bandwidth.

 

[Cooltool]

That’s great. What did you use before C298? And before purchase what other alternatives did you consider?

Did you find any reliable tested measurement for C298? I see that it wasn’t tested I’m Thai forum just yet?

I have also read, in this forum, some people concern about continuous gain, that could result in imbalance compared to M23. What’s your thoughts?

Before C298 I used NuPrime IDA-16. Alternatives considered before purchasing NAD: NuPrime AMG STA, Benchmark AHB2, VTV EVAl-1. Check this thread, I think there was a link to C298 testing and measurements in Polish. Then there is always this: https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-c-298-power-amplifier-measurements

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The least expensive implementation of the Purifi Eigentact is also probably the best:

VTV Purifi Eigentact $1139 with 12v trigger, and two year warranty. Nice but not super premium case. It's identical to the amp Amir reviewed. I assembled that amp from parts and it cost more than the VTV because of the OEM discounts VTV has. I use mine to drive LS50 Metas and love it. Probably the best measuring amp this side of the Benchmark AHB2. 'Nuff Ced.

VTV AMPLIFIER Purifi Eigentakt Stereo Amplifier based on EVAL-1 | VTV Amplifier

 

[DanielT]

Cheers to the neighboring country!

I am happy to recommend the Vera Audio P400 / 1000 stereo amplifier. Great to see a high power amplifier in our top 10 best amplifiers ever tested

Vera Audio P400/1000 Review (Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Vera Audio P400/1000 Hypex NC500 based amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs 26 000 NOK ex VAT (US $2934). The case is milled from solid aluminum and has a nice quality and look to it. It is also quite heavy for a class D amp...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[TurtlePaul]

To be honest, the best approach would be to put you R-N602 into Pure Direct mode behind the ADI2 and pour all of the savings into the speakers. No amp will have a notable impact while the different speakers will sound vastly noticeable.

If you are exploring a scientific mindset, look up a frequency response graph for those B&Ws.

What do you mean those speakers are in your “pipe-line”? Are you going to do in-home auditions?

 

[amper42]

I'm running the RME ADI-2 DAC FS in my office with the Buckeye NC502MP ($699 shipped). It does an amazing job with the ADI-2. The ADI-2 offers more gain than just about any other DAC and can cleanly drive the amp to ear splitting levels. The NC502MP is the best value I have seen in a quality amp and it can drive all of my speakers from the Revel F328Be to the BMR monitors. If I wanted a small step up to the next level, I would recommend the Purifi coming from Buckeye Amps ($1129) or the March Audio P452 $1700. The difference in these amps is small in my AB tests, but if you want to spend another $500-$1000 for a 5% difference get the Purifi.

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Mehdiem]

The least expensive implementation of the Purifi Eigentact is also probably the best:

VTV Purifi Eigentact $1139 with 12v trigger, and two year warranty. Nice but not super premium case. It's identical to the amp Amir reviewed. I assembled that amp from parts and it cost more than the VTV because of the OEM discounts VTV has. I use mine to drive LS50 Metas and love it. Probably the best measuring amp this side of the Benchmark AHB2. 'Nuff Ced.

VTV AMPLIFIER Purifi Eigentakt Stereo Amplifier based on EVAL-1 | VTV Amplifier

I live in Canada. I can get C298 at 16% discount from its Canadian price (on top of that CAD$ is cheaper than USD$). Having said that, do you think VTV Purifi is superior to NAD C298? There is no review of C298 from Amir. I see that some people objected to the Audiophile review of C298. Also, I see some people being worried about "continues gain control" as opposed to fixed gain control on M23, which might cause an imbalance. Honesty, I don't understand the technical language (neither understand how this possible shortcoming might impact me?) so I am lost.

 

[SIY]

I would also suggest taking a look at Orchard's amps.

 

[Mehdiem]

To be honest, the best approach would be to put you R-N602 into Pure Direct mode behind the ADI2 and pour all of the savings into the speakers. No amp will have a notable impact while the different speakers will sound vastly noticeable.

If you are exploring a scientific mindset, look up a frequency response graph for those B&Ws.

What do you mean those speakers are in your “pipe-line”? Are you going to do in-home auditions?

he best approach would be to put you R-N602 into Pure Direct mode behind the ADI2

Certainly, I will try that. I never thought of this before. Could you briefly tell me what happens in the Pure Direct? Do you think in that case the quality I get can get close to a good amp such as C298?

he best approach would be to put you R-N602 into Pure Direct mode behind the ADI2

Surely I will. Thanks for noting this. At the same time, I need to first learn to understand the language. What each of these "parameters" "buzzwords" means, outside of the dictory, in other words, how important and relevant are each to my case? Could you share any resources that I can start reading and learning?

What do you mean those speakers are in your “pipe-line”? Are you going to do in-home auditions?

I meant they are in my "wish-list" to buy in the near future

 

[TurtlePaul]

The NAD is just as good if you can get a good price. All of the amps in this class are transparent (you can't hear a difference). While the NAD has a gain control it is defeatable - if you flip a switch the variable gain control is no longer used. Anything in this class is beyond audibly transparent - if you match the gains and can't see which amp is hooked up it is literally impossible to hear the difference at even high volume levels.