Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[Frgirard]

I skimmed through the thread and saw a number of comments about mid-bass being insufficient in small speakers even with a sub, and I couldn't agree more. Apologies if this has already been shared, but take a look at the average spectrum of pop music here, especially the 100-300hz range:

Average spectrum of all available data

And then look at the distortion and compression results across a variety of speakers in the same 100-300hz range. You will quickly realize that a relatively large speaker (a single large driver or multiple smaller drivers) is still necessary to enable uncompressed playback of the average musical signal between 100 and 300Hz--or even 500hz for some speakers--with a subwoofer.

Just how pronounced the improvement is was the biggest surprise for me. A quick example is the synth that kicks in at the 38 second mark of James Dean (2015 Remaster) by JR JR; there's a presence to the synth in large speakers that I've never heard fully reproduced at a satisfying playback levels in a small speaker--even with a sub-- outside of the near-field.

So for this listener, subwoofers in no way make large speakers obsolete.

The woofer reproduce a part of the mid.

 

[Frgirard]

There are not one way to use a subwoofer. An other way Geddes, Northward is to let the speakers in full band and cut only the sub.
Issue: the mains must be have enough spl in the shared frequency area.

 

[gfx_1]

As a kid I always dreamed about the huge towers with a big woofer or even several bass drivers.
But I'm wondering now that subs are priced OK for 10-15 inch and it's possible to add one to each channel, are all the big speakers obsolete?
So a small speaker /monitor combined with a sub basically have the same woofer power as the big guys for much less €€€
What am I missing here?

I like big speakers heard some in the DIY speaker store, still sort of want them but the shop is closed, went for a bit smaller 4 way transmission line, they go low and are big enough for the cats to lie on. If you place bookshelve speakers on a stand they take the same room as floorstanders.

 

[DonR]

The days of flipping through a SpeakerLab catalogue still haunt me.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I skimmed through the thread and saw a number of comments about mid-bass being insufficient in small speakers even with a sub, and I couldn't agree more. Apologies if this has already been shared, but take a look at the average spectrum of pop music here, especially the 100-300hz range:

Average spectrum of all available data

And then look at the distortion and compression results across a variety of speakers in the same 100-300hz range. You will quickly realize that a relatively large speaker (a single large driver or multiple smaller drivers) is still necessary to enable uncompressed playback of the average musical signal between 100 and 300Hz--or even 500hz for some speakers--with a subwoofer. Even the venerable Kii Three is a no-go for me based on it's instantaneous compression results in this range.

Just how pronounced the improvement is was the biggest surprise for me. A quick example is the synth that kicks in at the 38 second mark of James Dean (2015 Remaster) by JR JR; there's a presence to the synth in large speakers that I've never heard fully reproduced at a satisfying playback level in a small speaker--even with a sub-- outside of the near-field.

So for this listener, subwoofers in no way make large speakers obsolete.

Edited: Typo and reference to Kii Three

I think you make a good point but how significant the potential limitation of the smaller speaker will be is clearly going to depend on how loud someone wants to listen, and so by extension also room size and listening distance.

I wonder what level of distortion at say 200 Hz might be considered 'a problem'?

 

[Bugal1998]

I think you make a good point but how significant the potential limitation of the smaller speaker will be is clearly going to depend on how loud someone wants to listen, and so by extension also room size and listening distance.

I wonder what level of distortion at say 200 Hz might be considered 'a problem'?

Oh for sure, it's definitely distance and level dependent. I don't know at what level distortion would become objectionable... but between the distortion and the compression, I suspect the compression is likely to be the more perceptually objectionable

 

[Ultrasonic]

Oh for sure, it's definitely distance and level dependent. I don't know at what level distortion would become objectionable... but between the distortion and the compression, I suspect the compression is likely to be the more perceptually objectionable

Agreed. I asked about distortion as it was less obvious to me what would be an issue, whereas compression is comparatively straightforward.

 

[Bugal1998]

Agreed. I asked about distortion as it was less obvious to me what would be an issue, whereas compression is comparatively straightforward.

It's a good question.

I haven't done a careful analysis of all the speakers Erin has tested, so there may well be exceptions, but in the absence of DSP limiting, the two seem to go hand-in-hand; if distortion is rising rapidly as either frequency decreases or output increases, the same speakers also seem to compress. So perhaps in practice it's as simple as avoiding compression?

 

[tktran303]

It's a good question.

I haven't done a careful analysis of all the speakers Erin has tested, so there may well be exceptions, but in the absence of DSP limiting, the two seem to go hand-in-hand; if distortion is rising rapidly as either frequency decreases or output increases, the same speakers also seem to compress. So perhaps in practice it's as simple as avoiding compression?

They are all related forms of non-linear distortion.

Harmonic distortion
Intermodulation distortion
Dynamic compression

 

[tktran303]

I skimmed through the thread and saw a number of comments about mid-bass being insufficient in small speakers even with a sub, and I couldn't agree more. Apologies if this has already been shared, but take a look at the average spectrum of pop music here, especially the 100-300hz range:

Average spectrum of all available data

And then look at the distortion and compression results across a variety of speakers in the same 100-300hz range. You will quickly realize that a relatively large speaker (a single large driver or multiple smaller drivers) is still necessary to enable uncompressed playback of the average musical signal between 100 and 300Hz--or even 500hz for some speakers--with a subwoofer. Even the venerable Kii Three is a no-go for me based on it's instantaneous compression results in this range.

Just how pronounced the improvement is was the biggest surprise for me. A quick example is the synth that kicks in at the 38 second mark of James Dean (2015 Remaster) by JR JR; there's a presence to the synth in large speakers that I've never heard fully reproduced at a satisfying playback level in a small speaker--even with a sub-- outside of the near-field.

So for this listener, subwoofers in no way make large speakers obsolete.

Edited: Typo and reference to Kii Three

This is why psychoacoustics really matter. In the modern ear with DSP/active amplification we can get very enjoyable speakers that are tiny, or headphones because they only have to cover between 50Hz and 10KHz; where the majority of music lives…

 

[Bugal1998]

They are all related forms of non-linear distortion.

Harmonic distortion
Intermodulation distortion
Dynamic compression

I was under the--perhaps mistaken--impression that Dynamic Compression was a type of linear distortion since it doesn't generate new frequency components in the signal. It's a simple amplitude distortion, however, the amplitude is distorting due to the non-linear mechanical motion of the driver... and the non-linear motion of the driver also leads to harmonic distortion... so they're related in causation, but not necessarily all forms of non-linear distortions.

Feel free to point me in the right direction where I may have some things misconstrued.

 

[crazycloud]

Subs without any distortion or noise are generally less localizable than one would think.

And about as common as Unicorns.

 

[crazycloud]

Subwoofers don’t make large speakers obsolete. For example, larger speakers can have advantages in higher output within lower distortion, due to larger or more drivers, and typically have 3-way/4-way designs that have mid-bass/bass drivers working more in their optimal range, which benefits output and distortion. 3 or 4-way designs will also shrink the midrange smaller than it otherwise would be, and that results in better dispersion. All of that said, all speakers are improved with active crossovers and competent subwoofers. This is because the optimal location for stereo imaging is never the optimal location for bass response.

Bingo.

 

[sigbergaudio]

And about as common as Unicorns.

The word "audible" was missing from the sentence.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

As a kid I always dreamed about the huge towers with a big woofer or even several bass drivers.
But I'm wondering now that subs are priced OK for 10-15 inch and it's possible to add one to each channel, are all the big speakers obsolete?
So a small speaker /monitor combined with a sub basically have the same woofer power as the big guys for much less €€€
What am I missing here?

You'll have to pry my large speakers from my hands lol.

Although I do have studio monitors, I like my large floorstanding speakers of which I have more than a few.

I’ve always found that monitors, or bookshelves could never create the sound stage that a large set of speakers can. Maybe that’s just me, or maybe it’s my room. The large speakers also give me the flexibility to run my two channel set up without subwoofers if I choose. I would never be happy with the bass response produced from a set of bookshelf speakers, Studio monitors like the older JBL‘s maybe.

Also in my AVR I set my large speakers too small when running my subwoofers, and I can turn that off and run them full range if I so choose.

Everybody has different needs, and there probably is no correct answer, but in my opinion large speakers will always have a place in the audio world. I understand if people are happy with a bookshelf for monitor, and all the power to them. Happy is happy.

 

[thewas]

I find it interesting that many people write that their larger loudspeakers create a bigger image while my experience is rather the opposite, usually smaller loudspeakers which come closer to a point source (ideally coaxial or full range) give me the most impressive three dimensional sound stages.

 

[puppet]

Most of the sound stage and imaging is in the recording. Larger speakers just expand those cues with greater SPL capability.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Most of the sound stage and imaging is in the recording. Larger speakers just expand those cues with greater SPL capability.

That’s not exactly true, our speakers, their placement and our room has the final say in soundstage. Yes it’s mastered that way, by mic placement, DSP and other Sound quality that the engineering master is after, but just as important are the variables I just stated.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

I find it interesting that many people write that their larger loudspeakers create a bigger image while my experience is rather the opposite, usually smaller loudspeakers which come closer to a point source (ideally coaxial or full range) give me the most impressive three dimensional sound stages.

Interesting, and I think it’s the size of the room. In my large room I doubt I would ever get bookshelves to create the soundstage that I have with my floor standers. In my experience large rooms swallow up small speakers.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

This isn’t to say that you can’t get them to sound good, but you’ll never get a set of bookshelf speakers to sound as good as my floor standers in my 16’ x 26’ room.

I guess it all depends what you’re after.

Good discussion though, and I’m always willing to learn. I actually have a set of Pinnacle bookshelf speakers that I’ve been dying to pull out to test this theory. they are a large three-way set, and they do sound really great. Wonder how they would sound in my room?