• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Will this supercapacitor bank work for my Ifi Zen Can?

Nkam

Active Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2023
Messages
290
Likes
200
Hey everyone.

will this supercapacitor bank work for my Ifi Zen Can Sig so I can run low impedance headphones?

https://iancanada.ca/products/ucconditionermkii-5v-or-3-3v
I emailed the guy and he said it would be good. But I don’t know how much current it will supply at constant supply. Sorry I’m a newbie at this stuff.

I have the ipower adaptor but that won’t be enough for lower impedance headphones.

or will this linear power supply be better?

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...ewayAdapt=bra2usa4itemAdapt#nav-specification

Thanks in advance!
@solderdude your good at this stuff, can you please take a look? Thanks!
 
Which one ? (I assume HFM version)
Which headphones ?

From what I can see the output stage is limited to 0.25A (3V in 12ohm) and voltage limited at 15V.

With some conversion losses (the internal DC/DC converter in the amp) max. 13W (2.5A) will be drawn from the power supply.
This is based on Amirs measurements of the ifi Zen Can.
Unfortunately Amir used a 2.5A power supply (as none was supplied with the tested amp) so it could be that a more powerful 5V power supply could increase max output power in very low impedances. No way to tell but unlikely much more could be pumped out of it and if it does it will only be 1 or 2dB more which is not an audible amount.

Using a power supply with a higher power (current) rating seems pointless as the amp will not magically put out more as it reaches the limits of the amp.
It might give a bit more power in the lowest impedances though.
 
Last edited:
Which one ? (I assume HFM version)
Which headphones ?

no I have the Sig 6XX version and currently use Beyer 1990 headphones and it’s fine , but I want it to be ‘ future proof’ with let’s say planars or other lower impedance headphones, which I plan to get.

Thoren says that it needs around 4A , max 5A.
so how do I get that using a different power supply?

will the supercapacitor I linked to increase the current supplied or it needs a better power supply?

hope that made sense.
 
Here is what Thoren wrote about the power supply.

I explain the issues (and propose a simple "quick, dirty and coyote ugly" DIY solution I used myself) in a post in the DIY section of Headfi:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sup...ucts-and-possibly-other-manufacturers.966163/

As a short summary - the ZEN CAN draws nearly 2A idle, due the high bias of the output stage. I had recommended a minimum 4A PSU to be included. It ships with a 2.4A supply for reasons I have no idea of. That is a bad idea. Even a 3A supply is marginal IMO.

The power supply designed into the ZEN CAN (5V DC -> +/-12V DC-DC converter) is actually the same as found on the Diablo, but set to +/-12V fixed. Give it enough current on the 5V input it can output a lot of power. Typically the IC used limits at 5A, the converter is over 80% efficient. So around 18W can be delivered to the circuit, of which around 8W are lost in the idle current of the output stage. Actually the Diablo also looses a comparable amount of power Idle when switched to 'turbo'.

A Class AB amplifier has a maximum of 70% efficiency, in practice less, so each channel should be able to deliver 3 Watt or so power before clipping with an optimum load.

I did test with a 6A Lab supply and fat cables to see what the Amp is capable of and got something close to expected, as best as I can recall, whatever that was.

The ZEN CAN is not meant to be a powerhouse, but it would offer much more power had it been given a sufficient external power supply. As it it's anaemic, because the 2.4A power supply especially is holding it back.

Thor
 
Ah... the 6xx version... that's another story (compared to the HFM)

The max. voltage it can reach is 15V.
The frequency response is tailored to the Sennheiser range, not the Beyerdynamic range which is tonally vastly different and needs a very different correction then HD6**

At 15V only 1W is available per channel. (the drivers are rated 0.5W)
This means the power supply, at full power, will draw max 4W from the 5V power supply (and this will be peak, average will be below 1W with music blasting at clipping levels).
So any power supply that can deliver 1A is already overkill and that power will never be drawn.
So in this case there is no technical difference between using a 5W or 50W power supply as there will never be drawn more than 4W (peaks).

Given Thors explanation this means that a 5A (25W) is about max that can be drawn (limited by the internal 25W converter) which is only valid for low impedance headphones.
 
The power cap bank will need to be fed with a 25W 5V power supply to reach the required output power.
You can use a lower power rated power supply, say 2.5A, yet still be able to draw 5A peaks from the capacitor bank with music.

The power supply you linked to (the 5V) can deliver 5A peaks so also would be sufficient.

Both are not needed to drive HD6xx range nor the Beyerdynamics and would only be needed for low inpedance headphones which, in your case, would also get an EQ that is certainly not correct.
 
The power cap bank will need to be fed with a 25W 5V power supply to reach the required output power.
You can use a lower power rated power supply, say 2.5A, yet still be able to draw 5A peaks from the capacitor bank with music.

The power supply you linked to (the 5V) can deliver 5A peaks so also would be sufficient.

Both are not needed to drive HD6xx range nor the Beyerdynamics and would only be needed for low inpedance headphones which, in your case, would also get an EQ that is certainly not correct.

I don’t use the EQ button on the Sigxxx so it is the same as the non sig version. I use PEQ from Roon for my beyers. So that is fine. The amp only adjusts the eq when the button is pushed.
I was thinking of getting some hd650 in the future so that button might come in handy

yeah I want to future proof the amp so I can buy lower Impedance headphones and have no issues.
I have the power supply that came with the zen can and it’s the Ifi power x
i don’t know how many watts it is. doesnt say

https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/

so that capacitor bank with my current ipower will be sufficient to future proof the amp and its ability to drive low impearance headphones?


I super appreciate all the help man.
oh and this is what the manufacturer of the supercapacitor bank said. I think people know him on here. He’s the Ian Canada guy

You can use a 5V 3A-5A USB-C power adapter as input to the UcConditioner, and install a power cable/with a connector to the output for your Ifi.
My UcConditioner can deliver dynamic peak current higher than 250A.
 
Ah... the 6xx version... that's another story (compared to the HFM)

The max. voltage it can reach is 15V.
The frequency response is tailored to the Sennheiser range, not the Beyerdynamic range which is tonally vastly different and needs a very different correction then HD6**

At 15V only 1W is available per channel. (the drivers are rated 0.5W)
This means the power supply, at full power, will draw max 4W from the 5V power supply (and this will be peak, average will be below 1W with music blasting at clipping levels).
So any power supply that can deliver 1A is already overkill and that power will never be drawn.
So in this case there is no technical difference between using a 5W or 50W power supply as there will never be drawn more than 4W (peaks).

Given Thors explanation this means that a 5A (25W) is about max that can be drawn (limited by the internal 25W converter) which is only valid for low impedance headphones.

Thoren also mentioned that from the design the amp always draws 2A at idle.
why he said he recommended a 4A power supply that Ifi neglected to do.
 
Hey everyone.

will this supercapacitor bank work for my Ifi Zen Can Sig so I can run low impedance headphones?

https://iancanada.ca/products/ucconditionermkii-5v-or-3-3v
I emailed the guy and he said it would be good. But I don’t know how much current it will supply at constant supply. Sorry I’m a newbie at this stuff.

I have the ipower adaptor but that won’t be enough for lower impedance headphones.

or will this linear power supply be better?

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...ewayAdapt=bra2usa4itemAdapt#nav-specification

Thanks in advance!
@solderdude your good at this stuff, can you please take a look? Thanks!
Silly question - instead of spending maybe $70-80 for some power supply from AliExpress or $110 on some supercaps to hack your amp for low impedance and sensitivity cans you might get in the future, isn't it more sensible to get, say an L50 for $169 which can already do 3.5W per channel with no hacks. once you get said cans?
 
Silly question - instead of spending maybe $70-80 for a some power supply from AliExpress or $110 on some supercaps to hack your amp for low impedance and sensitivity cans you might get in the future, isn't it more sensible to get, say an L50 for $169 which can already do 3.5W per channel with no hacks. once you get said cans?

maybe. But I already have the Zen Can.

it’s not hacking the amp. It’s just giving it more current if it needs it.

if I didn’t have the amp, yeah maybe.
 
Capacitors smooth out the current, they smooth out voltage variation caused by load current variation (i.e. AC component), they don't provide more DC current.

Just buy a power supply that says it has higher DC current if you're worried about current capacity.
 
Capacitors smooth out the current, they smooth out voltage variation caused by load current variation (i.e. AC component), they don't provide more DC current.

Just buy a power supply that says it has higher DC current if you're worried about current capacity.

yea but the amp works with dynamic current right?
that is, it will draw more current when needed , and won’t the supercapacitor bank supply that if needed?

i am assuming that if you connect a 5V 3A power supply the capacitors will provide that draw, but if the amp needs more the capacitors will be able to handle short peak draws of current. Right?
 
Yes. The capacitors will provide peak current.

Now find someone to calculate you an actual value of the max current after adding the capacitors.
 
Yes. The capacitors will provide peak current.

Now find someone to calculate you an actual value of the max current after adding the capacitors.

how do you do that?
 
how do you do that?
That's the good part, you don't.

That's why you don't hear of people quantifying how much extra peak power you get from adding xxx farads of capacitance. Like most audio tweaks it has a basis in science but falls apart when you ask how the maths connect.

The benefit from doubling capacitance is halving ripple voltage. Although ripple is related to load current, the context, scale and goal here are vastly different. Definition of ripple is clear, definition of "peak power" is not. Also, you can measure the effect of ripple on the output, so once it is below the noise floor (like every good product measured on this website nowadays) then reducing ripple further has no real benefit. Maybe Amir can include output ripple noise vs output power measurement, who knows.

Consider the scale of things: Up to a certain duration, we can argue that "crest factor"... "program material" blah blah blah... they allow the usage of a power supply that does not have enough sustained output capacity for a flat square wave DC signal to still be able to reproduce the typical music waveform. But I ask to think in another way: You still need a known certain amount of power in order to reproduce the music signal, it's just that the shape of the input power can be different. And capacitors help to bridge that gap - The incoming power waveform can be totally straight DC (or it can follow the AC mains voltage, depending on context), yet the output power waveform is the music signal. The difference is being covered by the capacitor.

So two points to note:
1) For one output power waveform, regardless of how the input power waveform looks like due to capacitors and whatnot, the amount of power delivered by the power supply is still the same. The capacitor changing the waveform shape can allow for certain cost savings possibilities e.g. lower maximum transistor current, but the amount of power is still the same on average. Ergo, a 25W power supply is not going to produce a music that averages >25W no matter how much capacitance you give it. It can produce 50W peak... 75W peak... how long you want the peak to be, which leads us to the next point:

2) How long should the peak duration be? We have the CEA-2006/490A standard: 1kHz sine wave signal that utilizes a 8 ms burst at full power with a THD+N <1% followed by 24 ms pause. This is repeated every 32 ms with a 6dB Power Crest factor. but this is not what I'm talking about here because notice the duration numbers: The period is only 32ms long. As long as you have enough capacitance to cover the duration, the bottleneck becomes how much power the power supply can provide every 32ms. How much capacitance is needed? Up to debate depending on crest factor and allowable distortion, but definitely not in the order of a few seconds that is provided by extreme capacitor values.

Having extra power for this kind of long duration presents a different kind of issue if that power is being used for "better performance" or "moar power". I'm totally fine if this capacitance is there to prevent glitches, mains AC issues, and even to provide graceful shutdown - Things affecting actual functionality. But if you have "more temporary power for 10 minutes", then here's a problem in actual use: If you're playing song A which needs the extra power, and you decided to play song A again, would the second time you play song A run into power issues? Or how about 1 second: The first two bass drum kicks are fine, then the rest start to clip. Then after a while of recharge the next two kicks that come are good again, followed by clipping ones. This peak power is unusable if you ask me.

Moral of story: Provide just enough "peak" capacitance to sustain maybe one 5Hz or 10Hz cycle. (0.2s ~ 0.1s) Maybe 1Hz / 1s if you really want. Let incoming power supply deal with durations longer than that. Because any "peak" duration longer than that is going to cause performance fluctuation with a time frame that is perceptible by humans.
 
That's the good part, you don't.

That's why you don't hear of people quantifying how much extra peak power you get from adding xxx farads of capacitance. Like most audio tweaks it has a basis in science but falls apart when you ask how the maths connect.

The benefit from doubling capacitance is halving ripple voltage. Although ripple is related to load current, the context, scale and goal here are vastly different. Definition of ripple is clear, definition of "peak power" is not. Also, you can measure the effect of ripple on the output, so once it is below the noise floor (like every good product measured on this website nowadays) then reducing ripple further has no real benefit. Maybe Amir can include output ripple noise vs output power measurement, who knows.

Consider the scale of things: Up to a certain duration, we can argue that "crest factor"... "program material" blah blah blah... they allow the usage of a power supply that does not have enough sustained output capacity for a flat square wave DC signal to still be able to reproduce the typical music waveform. But I ask to think in another way: You still need a known certain amount of power in order to reproduce the music signal, it's just that the shape of the input power can be different. And capacitors help to bridge that gap - The incoming power waveform can be totally straight DC (or it can follow the AC mains voltage, depending on context), yet the output power waveform is the music signal. The difference is being covered by the capacitor.

So two points to note:
1) For one output power waveform, regardless of how the input power waveform looks like due to capacitors and whatnot, the amount of power delivered by the power supply is still the same. The capacitor changing the waveform shape can allow for certain cost savings possibilities e.g. lower maximum transistor current, but the amount of power is still the same on average. Ergo, a 25W power supply is not going to produce a music that averages >25W no matter how much capacitance you give it. It can produce 50W peak... 75W peak... how long you want the peak to be, which leads us to the next point:

2) How long should the peak duration be? We have the CEA-2006/490A standard: 1kHz sine wave signal that utilizes a 8 ms burst at full power with a THD+N <1% followed by 24 ms pause. This is repeated every 32 ms with a 6dB Power Crest factor. but this is not what I'm talking about here because notice the duration numbers: The period is only 32ms long. As long as you have enough capacitance to cover the duration, the bottleneck becomes how much power the power supply can provide every 32ms. How much capacitance is needed? Up to debate depending on crest factor and allowable distortion, but definitely not in the order of a few seconds that is provided by extreme capacitor values.

Having extra power for this kind of long duration presents a different kind of issue if that power is being used for "better performance" or "moar power". I'm totally fine if this capacitance is there to prevent glitches, mains AC issues, and even to provide graceful shutdown - Things affecting actual functionality. But if you have "more temporary power for 10 minutes", then here's a problem in actual use: If you're playing song A which needs the extra power, and you decided to play song A again, would the second time you play song A run into power issues? Or how about 1 second: The first two bass drum kicks are fine, then the rest start to clip. Then after a while of recharge the next two kicks that come are good again, followed by clipping ones. This peak power is unusable if you ask me.

Moral of story: Provide just enough "peak" capacitance to sustain maybe one 5Hz or 10Hz cycle. (0.2s ~ 0.1s) Maybe 1Hz / 1s if you really want. Let incoming power supply deal with durations longer than that. Because any "peak" duration longer than that is going to cause performance fluctuation with a time frame that is perceptible by humans.

I super appreciate the info!

would this power supply be good you think?
for noise etc?
should the internals of the Zen Can deal with any noise coming from the power supply?
this is 5V 4A which is what should have been provided with the zen can from the designer.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...ewayAdapt=bra2usa4itemAdapt#nav-specification
 
CEA-2006/490A standard: 1kHz sine wave signal that utilizes a 8 ms burst at full power with a THD+N <1% followed by 24 ms pause. This is repeated every 32 ms with a 6dB Power Crest factor
I'd like to see this performed for all power amplifier tests.
 
Anyone know of some good cheap linear power supplies that put out 4-5A ?

I don’t want to subscribe to snake oil expensive audio linear power supplies.

thanks !
 
Back
Top Bottom