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WIIM Ultra, try to verify automatic time alignment of the sub out

Paffi

Senior Member
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Dec 21, 2021
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Hi there,

I hope I´ve choosen the correction section here - the topic fits in several sections but as It´s main relation is the WIIM Ultra and it´s subwoofer time alignment, I´ve choosen here.

Today I wanted to verify how the automatic time alignment for the sub out, which the WIIM Ultra offers, is working.

As reference I´ve attached the screenshots with delay values from REW, from the WIIM App and also the .mdat file (containing 2 measurements), If anyone wants to verify.

I´ve measured (with timing reference, mic always same position) the sub with a testsignal 20-200hz (multisub consisting of 4 subwoofers, aligned and eq´d with MSO and minidsp 2x4hd; connected as "single sub" to the subout of the WIIM Ultra) and also the front Left (20-200hz) in separate and used the different alignment tools REW offers. I then used the automatic alignment tool of the WIIM Ultra and compared the values. The results are shown in the below table:

Overview Delay Values.jpg


I wanted to know which method the WIIM uses - Impulse or Phase and hoped, that I can verify the values of the WIIM with REW. I could not but I have an assumption.

While the Alignment Tool of REW offers many different values (also inverting the subs or even delaying the subs instead of the main speaker) and is mainly dependent of the choosen crossover, the fact came up, that the automatic delay values of the WIIM are heavily dependent of the choosen master volume (the volume you change e.g. using the remote control or smartphone app).

As a consequence I assume, that WIIM uses for alignment the impulse response, as the delay value doesn´t differ no matter which crossover you chose. And the WIIM Values (22-29ms) come the closest to the REW values of my manually impulse alignment (21-22ms). So it is very important, when you use the time alignment of the WIIM, that you verify in the first instance, that sub and main speaker have a similar volume while the measurement occurs.

Which is the "right" delay value - this question remains unanswered for me. I´m curious what you guys think!

Greetings


Paffi
 

Attachments

  • WIIM, high volume, 29ms.png
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  • Measurements for Sub Alignment.zip
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  • Manuell Alignment, Delay with Timing Reference, 18,1ms.jpg
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  • Manuell Alignment Impulse Response, Peak, 21ms.jpg
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  • Manuell Alignment Impulse Response, Dip, 22ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 140hz, Phase, 16,5ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 140hz, Phase Slopes, 13,4ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 140hz, Impulse, -5,3ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 100hz, Phase, 16,9ms.jpg
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  • WIIM, low volume, 22ms.png
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  • WIIM, medium volume, 26ms.png
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  • Alignment Tool, 80hz, Impulse, 12,7ms inverted.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 80hz, Phase Slopes, 10,9ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 100hz, Impulse, 29,3ms.jpg
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  • Alignment Tool, 100hz, Phase Slopes, 14ms.jpg
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The Iltra uses it's own in buildt microphone for the sub delay, right? So, is this delay depending on speaker and sub placement in the room?
 
The Iltra uses it's own in buildt microphone for the sub delay, right? So, is this delay depending on speaker and sub placement in the room?
I used the same mic as for rew: Umik-1. For the WIIM it was plugged into the smartphone.
 
I understand, but the Wiim forum also mentionts that the buildt in mic of the Ultra is used. Maybe that's why you'll find differences and is the placement of the device more important than expected.

Edit: However, for me it's been a while since my measurements. But I noticed that with the FR sweep in the room correction the app recognised the Umik 1 and with the sub allignment it didn't.
 
Last edited:
Interesting...! Have you done measurements after you set the different delays? Would be interesting to see how Impuls/step response look like for mains and subs together.

I find it interesting that delay you have to apply for your mains is almost always around 20ms.

I discovered the same. My two subs are placed right next to the mains, but still I have to apply a delay of 20ms to the mains. The same in my other system....
 
I find it interesting that delay you have to apply for your mains is almost always around 20ms.

I discovered the same. My two subs are placed right next to the mains, but still I have to apply a delay of 20ms to the mains. The same in my other system....
The delay is necessary due to the dsps AFTER the subout - the minidsp has it´s on delay and also the subs while the mains itself have no further delay (directly into poweramp).

I do have a measurement with 26ms or 27ms delay (not quite sure If 26 or 27, as I did another measurement with the wiim turning out with 27ms), please find attached the measurement. No smoothing, no further eq (only the subs via MSO in the minidsp). Also the .mdat.

Sub + Front L Aligned, SPL & Phase, crossover 140hz, 27ms delay.jpg

Sub + Front L Aligned, Specto, crossover 140hz, 27ms delay.jpg

Sub + Front L Aligned, GD, crossover 140hz, 27ms delay.jpg
 

Attachments

  • L+Subs+no EQ, 140hz, 27ms.zip
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I did a test of the sub delay and it worked as well as I could physically measure the difference in distance between the sub and mains. My setup is very symmetrical with the subs consisting of infinite baffle type located in the basement directly under each main speaker.

I grabbed some RCA extension cables out of the junk box and placed the Ultra at the sweet spot and ran the setup. I had measured three feet physical difference in sound path, and the Ultra came up with the subs lagging the mains by 3ms, which at an approximation of 1 foot/ms, is as close as it needs to be for the subwoofer calculation. I was satisfied. I wrote it up in a bit more detail with pictures on the Wiim forum. https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/...-for-main-speakers-and-subwoofer.5153/page-14
 
The delay is necessary due to the dsps AFTER the subout - the minidsp has it´s on delay and also the subs while the mains itself have no further delay (directly into poweramp).

I do have a measurement with 26ms or 27ms delay (not quite sure If 26 or 27, as I did another measurement with the wiim turning out with 27ms), please find attached the measurement. No smoothing, no further eq (only the subs via MSO in the minidsp). Also the .mdat.
Looks good... Okay, you have some kind of DBA setup, which in total will need some delay, I guess. The minidsp themselves only insert a 3ms delay I think.
 
I used the same mic as for rew: Umik-1. For the WIIM it was plugged into the smartphone.
Hi! How are you sure that the mic plugged into the smartphone was the mic performing the measurement? I had gathered that the mic in the Ultra was the working mic and that the smartphone mic (which would have worked fine) was not an option. I am just curious. Thanks!
 
I understand, but the Wiim forum also mentionts that the buildt in mic of the Ultra is used. Maybe that's why you'll find differences and is the placement of the device more important than expected.

Edit: However, for me it's been a while since my measurements. But I noticed that with the FR sweep in the room correction the app recognised the Umik 1 and with the sub allignment it didn't.
You are right - thought for time alignment also the Umik1 is used (like for room eq). But reading the statements from wiim in their forum, this assumption was wrong. So REW can't be compared to the WIIM delays. What a pitty.
Hi! How are you sure that the mic plugged into the smartphone was the mic performing the measurement? I had gathered that the mic in the Ultra was the working mic and that the smartphone mic (which would have worked fine) was not an option. I am just curious. Thanks!
It was an error - I have to redo the test with placing the wiim at the listening spot and probably get the same results like you.
 
I did a test of the sub delay and it worked as well as I could physically measure the difference in distance between the sub and mains. My setup is very symmetrical with the subs consisting of infinite baffle type located in the basement directly under each main speaker.

I grabbed some RCA extension cables out of the junk box and placed the Ultra at the sweet spot and ran the setup. I had measured three feet physical difference in sound path, and the Ultra came up with the subs lagging the mains by 3ms, which at an approximation of 1 foot/ms, is as close as it needs to be for the subwoofer calculation. I was satisfied. I wrote it up in a bit more detail with pictures on the Wiim forum. https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/...-for-main-speakers-and-subwoofer.5153/page-14
So the Wiim came up with only 3ms delay on your mains?

It's a pitty you can't use an external mic and Mobile phone for alignment.
 
I use the WiiM app on my phone and presumed it used the phone mic when performing measurements. Can someone please quote or link the official WiiM instructions?
 
I use the WiiM app on my phone and presumed it used the phone mic when performing measurements. Can someone please quote or link the official WiiM instructions?
I made the same, wrong, assumption.
 
You are right - thought for time alignment also the Umik1 is used (like for room eq). But reading the statements from wiim in their forum, this assumption was wrong. So REW can't be compared to the WIIM delays. What a pitty.

It was an error - I have to redo the test with placing the wiim at the listening spot and probably get the same results like you.
Thanks! This whole thing has had me confused.
 
So the Wiim came up with only 3ms delay on your mains?

It's a pitty you can't use an external mic and Mobile phone for alignment.
Yes! This test would not require a sophisticated microphone. The one built into any smartphone would do fine. There must be a technical reason they can't use the phone mic. Would be cool if they can and eventually do! I did not personally find it off putting in my case to perform the test by moving the device.
 
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