Why might a voice or instrument move it's apparent location in the soundstage?

[Emlin]

Headphones have way less soundstage than speakers.

That depends on the listener.

 

[VientoB]

That depends on the listener.

I don't think so

 

[Emlin]

I don't think so

I know so!

 

[VientoB]

I know so!

So you think some people get more soundstage from headphones than from loudspeakers?

 

[Emlin]

So you think some people get more soundstage from headphones than from loudspeakers?

You said that headphones have way less soundstage than speakers.

I said that that depends on the listener.

I did not say that anyone gets more soundstage from headphones than loudspeakers.

Please don't try and twist my words or you'll get taken for a troll.

 

[Geert]

By and large I have a soundstage that is acceptable, given the room size (3.9m x2.6m x 1.2m high)

Are your speakers and listening position positioned symmetrical in the room (L and R equal distance from the side walls)? If not, reflections can cause frequency response differences between the left and right speaker. This can result in lead vocal or instrument being drawn to one of the speakers when changing pitch.

 

[goat76]

As this recording is of "The Marriage of Figaro," it's quite possible the singers were moving around. Some opera recordings in the early stereo era were staged - London's recordings notably. Considering how important movement is in "Figaro," I could easily imagine this recording was at least partially staged, even if it is slightly outside the time window when the practice was fairly common.

I also think the singers are moving around based on the YouTube video I posted on the previous page (if that is the recording OP was listening to?).

Suppose the recording was made with a stereo pair of microphones with a directional pickup pattern and placed not too far apart. In that case, it's likely that when the singer moves a bit from right to left on the stage, the sound of the voice changes from being dominated by the right microphone to being dominated by the left microphone. If the two recordings by those two microphones are then hard-panned, one to the left and the other to the right, it could explain why the singer seems to be jumping from one point to another in the stereo field even if the (s)he's not, in reality, is moving that far on the stage as it sounds like.

The above is what I think is happening here. I find it unlikely that the directional behavior of OP's loudspeakers will make the singer appear to be coming from different positions in the stereo field if nothing else (like instruments) is moving around too.

 

[ivanj]

Artists (from those days) were trained as performers first, and recording in a studio second; if at all. Thus their movements whilst in the recording studio more closely match the stage where movements were common.

 

[Titurel]

I also think the singers are moving around based on the YouTube video I posted on the previous page (if that is the recording OP was listening to?).

Suppose the recording was made with a stereo pair of microphones with a directional pickup pattern and placed not too far apart. In that case, it's likely that when the singer moves a bit from right to left on the stage, the sound of the voice changes from being dominated by the right microphone to being dominated by the left microphone. If the two recordings by those two microphones are then hard-panned, one to the left and the other to the right, it could explain why the singer seems to be jumping from one point to another in the stereo field even if the (s)he's not, in reality, is moving that far on the stage as it sounds like.

The above is what I think is happening here. I find it unlikely that the directional behavior of OP's loudspeakers will make the singer appear to be coming from different positions in the stereo field if nothing else (like instruments) is moving around too.

It would be no surprise if this recording were captured by some variation on the Decca Tree, a trio of omnidirectional (or nearly omnidirectional) mikes, rather than something more like an ORTF set up.

That said, it has always been my understanding that unintended horizontal movement within a stereo image was predominantly caused by FR differences between the two channels and that unintended movement vertically or back to front was dominated by FR irregularities common to both speakers. The acoustics of the listening room can be the cause of either sort of movement, as can mismatched transducers and listener-head movements, especially in rooms with especially small, critical "sweet spots."

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hello,

I am a bit reluctant to post this, as I don't know if this is a basic beginners query or if it is a complex matter, but I have not yet found a direct answer to it, apart from the item in the thread referenced below*
By and large I have a soundstage that is acceptable, given the room size (3.9m x2.6m x 1.2m high) and the equipment (noted below). In most of my listening voices and instruments are satisfactorily separate in the soundstage but not pinpointed (although I do not know if they always should be).

However,listening to some opera I heard a couple of odd things, so here are 2 examples:
Ex 1. Nozze di Figaro – Act 1 scene 8 No 10 – Aria. For me the male voice (baritone) starts left of centre and moves to centre and back again as the power of the vocals increases and decreases. This also accompanies an apparent rise and fall in pitch.
Ex 2 Act 2scene 1 No 11 – La Contessa - definite movement from left of centre towards centre as pitch /volume increases, then back as these decrease.
The apparent distances moved seem unlikely to coincide with on-stage movements by the performers.
The next example did not behave the same:
Ex 3 - Act2, scene 2 No 13 Susanna's Aria – very little apparent movement.

I have also noticed a similar issue with electric guitar in at least 1 other audio track. Here my impression was that the instrument moved from right speaker some 10/20 degrees towards centre, then back again as loudness/frequency fluctuated. (I give this example to rule out a specific single speaker problem).

Based on my examples it seems possible that this effect happens at the change between tweeter and woofer in my speakers (Linn Katans,) as this area coincides with a large part of the human vocal range. If the crossover is the reason for the apparent soundstage issue, how could I test this? (I have REW+ Umik-1).

There are no manufacturers published figures for the Katan's crossovers.

Alternatively, is 'directivity' (or poor implementation of) the issue?

Does this apparent effect have a common name (that I could search on)?

If anyone can confirm my suspicions or offer alternative explanations, please do so!

My current set up is: Rpi4/Moodeaudio 9.1.3 → Denon X3600 → via preout to Linn AV5125 containing active crossovers for Linn Katans. MLP is 1.8mfrom each speaker, which are 1.75m apart and 0.6m from the front wall.

* thread in ASR -“Soundstage, and how much influence can audio equipment have”
Quote from DonH56 Aug10 2018 “And a speaker that does not integrate the drivers well will exhibit changes in soundstage and image as pitch goes up and down and so forth.”

Have you checked that your hearing is OK and the same on both sides?

 

[CapMan]

I had a slightly more extreme example of instruments moving - on Brad Meldau Day Is Done the double bass solo jumps around a lot in pitch. Because of asymmetry in my room the instrument would literally bounce from the centre to hard right when the player dropped an octave. It was caused by room modes operating differently on the left and right.

Now I am using Dirac and an AVR all
Is well and I have a perfectly centred double bass that stays put!

As others have said I'm sure the OPs issue could well be something room related..

 

[Keith_W]

To answer the OP's question, there are two possibilities:

1. The problem is in the recording. When more than one mic is used, there can be phase issues between the mics, especially if the mics are placed close to the vocalist. Then any movement by the vocalist exaggerates movement. I have a few recordings that sound like this, one example is this recording:

You will note that on some of the tracks, Bostridge suddenly snaps to the left, sometimes mid-note. I suspect he is moving around whilst singing. Blame the recording engineer for this one.

2. The problem is in your setup - so-called "phantom centre image drift". What it sounds like: some frequencies are centred, but other frequencies drift to the left or right. It is most easily detected by playing a sine wave at different frequencies to both speakers. The sine wave tone should be sharply centred between the speakers. You might find that with some frequencies, the tone might drift to the left or the right. The cause is phase asymmetry between speakers at certain frequencies. Such phase issues may be caused by your loudspeakers being dissimilar (e.g. crossover components or drivers drifting out of tolerance), asymmetric room layout or listening position, improper DSP, etc.

To tell the difference between the two, listen to the recording on headphones. If there is no image drift, you have a problem with your room or speakers.

 

[Matt_Holland]

By and large I have a soundstage that is acceptable, given the room size (3.9m x2.6m x 1.2m high)

I realise this may not be practical but have you tried rotating the room layout 90 degrees so that the speakers are in front of the longer 3.9m wall? This way your first reflection points are much further away and the direct sound from the speakers should be more dominant in your listening. Even if you are able to temporarily try this just to ascertain if the early reflections’ contribution to the sound (and its inconsistency) in your existing layout are a factor.

If there’s a solution that doesn’t involve the huge cost of new speakers I imagine that would be preferable. A layout change and/or adding acoustic treatment I’m sure would be a nice upgrade and quite cost effective.

 

[goat76]

If @5-pot-fan could just confirm if the video below is from the same album he is listening to, he can relax because the movement of the vocalists is in the recording.

Here below is the waveform from two different parts of the track where the male vocalist is the strongest dominating sound. In the first picture, it can be seen that the voice is stronger in the left channel. In the second picture, the voice is now stronger in the right channel. Unless there are two guys on each side of the stage with very similar voices, it's pretty obvious that the guy is moving around on the stage.

 

[VientoB]

You said that headphones have way less soundstage than speakers.

I said that that depends on the listener.

I did not say that anyone gets more soundstage from headphones than loudspeakers.

Please don't try and twist my words or you'll get taken for a troll.

I didn't mean to twist your words, I just haven't seen any evidence myself that some people get near loudspeaker levels of soundstage from headphones. If you watch The Headphone Show on YouTube I don't think any of the presenters think headphones offer anything like the soundstage. 15% is a figure I've seen them mention.

 

[Emlin]

I didn't mean to twist your words, I just haven't seen any evidence myself that some people get near loudspeaker levels of soundstage from headphones. If you watch The Headphone Show on YouTube I don't think any of the presenters think headphones offer anything like the soundstage. 15% is a figure I've seen them mention.

I am one of those that does.

 

[5-pot-fan]

Once again, thank you all for your replies.
I will attempt to a) read b) test c) double-check d) reply to all the various offerings and suggestions, but am going to be away for a few days from this evening, so please do not take my silence for anything else. There is much to learn here and I have made a start, but have a long way to go yet!
As Arnie said .......

 

[5-pot-fan]

@goat76
Based on the performers, conductor and the date I think we are dealing with the same recording.
On my version of the recording, Act 2 Sc X, the baritone is solo at approx 21 secs from the start of the scene, and is just to L of C on my system. As the second verse/phrase begins some 10 seconds later the voice is notably about halfway between C and R. It is possible that both Figaro and Il Conte are involved here. Is this the section that you have isolated in your 2nd response?

 

[goat76]

@goat76
Based on the performers, conductor and the date I think we are dealing with the same recording.
On my version of the recording, Act 2 Sc X, the baritone is solo at approx 21 secs from the start of the scene, and is just to L of C on my system. As the second verse/phrase begins some 10 seconds later the voice is notably about halfway between C and R. It is possible that both Figaro and Il Conte are involved here. Is this the section that you have isolated in your 2nd response?

I'm sorry, but which one exactly is "Scene 10", can you please point out which one it is in the link below to ensure we are listening to the same thing?

Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro, K. 492

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[Roland68]

I didn't mean to twist your words, I just haven't seen any evidence myself that some people get near loudspeaker levels of soundstage from headphones. If you watch The Headphone Show on YouTube I don't think any of the presenters think headphones offer anything like the soundstage. 15% is a figure I've seen them mention.

To do this, you would first need to look into in-the-head localization with headphones and out-of-head localization with loudspeakers.

If this doesn't work for you with headphones, it's probably because your brain doesn't have enough experience to interpret and evaluate/implement the acoustic information. You'll find plenty of reports and scientific papers online about this.

In such a case, I recommend attending concerts in halls with known good acoustics.