Why do you think a few members have an 'alcoholic anonymous' vibe towards the audiophile community? It seems a harmless hobby as far as things go?

[kemmler3D]

Gaming is more mainstream than audiophilia. A good gaming rig costs more than a good hifi system if you follow ASR recommendations and people spend grossly inflated prices during shortages like the GPU shortage. They also have to be updated regularly unlike a stereo.

Gaming is a GREAT counterexample to subjectivist audio. In gaming, every PC single component is benchmarked for quantitative performance, usually by multiple testers using multiple tests. There are multiple equivalents to Spinorama.org in gaming, and there have been for years. Measuring the performance of PC components has been a baseline expectation for decades.

You can find out the specific performance of a specific component with a specific game, in many cases. Which in audio would be like being able to look up which albums sound best on which speakers - objectively. What a dream.

In audio, you have people who question the entire concept of testing performance! In gaming that would be seen as unbelievably stupid, and rightly so.

So I don't think the industries have anything in common other than being based on electronics. The hobbies are comparable because of cost and (to your point) physical inactivity only.

Steve Guttenberg is one of the main influencers in the online 'woo' side of audiophilia.

Funny enough, I met Steve Guttenberg one time (at CES) and I asked him what his favorite headphone was. At the time, IIRC he said it was a certain model of AKG and it was mainly because it was Harman-tuned. Didn't give me woo vibes at all, at the time.

One of the surprising issues with this is a lot of the 'woo' audiophiles are scientists and engineers.

Indeed... not sure if there's anything to it, but it does SEEM like engineers operating outside of their fields are easily trapped in extreme, silly beliefs. Supposedly a lot of suicide bombers/terrorists are engineers. At my University, there was a tenured professor of engineering who was also a prominent Holocaust denier. I guess it goes to show that engineering skill is not based on having a firm and all-encompassing grasp on the scientific method...

 

[kemmler3D]

The point is that this is not just luxury buying. It is a world created in ether where manufacturers make claims that are not rooted in reality, and a segment of the population can't wait to hand them large checks in return. Such conduct attracts different commentary than someone just buying expensive watches, homes, etc.

This is the real beef I think. Some guy with $200M wants to spend $200K on speakers because they look fancy in his fancy house, and doesn't care about the details? Cool, no problem.

The problem is the marketing around those $200K speakers is 1) mostly false and 2) convinces people in the $3000 budget range that they should aspire to buy those $200K speakers, or something like them. This is harmful to everyone except the $200M guy.

Wouldn't someone who would spend $20K on a USB cable otherwise just spend it on the next crypto scam?

Not that I'm accusing you of anything, but this is the same logic that actual scammers use to justify their behavior. "If I don't steal their money, well, someone else surely will, so it might as well be me!"

In Europe there's a 30 day return period enshrined in law.

Must be nice... I'm sitting on some unworn sneakers that looked cool online but look stupid on me. "Final Sale". (no returns.)

 

[thewas]

In Europe there's a 30 day return period enshrined in law.

Not generally, for example in Germany it is 14 days and only if its bought not directly in a real store, so via internet, telephone etc. to give you a chance to test it which you cannot compared to a store.

 

[PatentLawyer]

I have a family member who purchases eyeglasses compulsively -- even though he does not require corrective lenses, he owns hundreds (thousands?) of pairs, of all manner of design and lens tint. And these are not Pearl Vision glasses--these are Brioni, Cartier, Tom Ford, etc.

He does not have the disposable income for this hobby/compulsion, and he has frequently relied on my wife and me to advance him money when he can't make ends meet. He's always paid us back, but most recently he told me of a $1600 pair of Brioni glasses he purchased, only to follow in our next conversation to ask for a quick thousand to make sure his mortgage check doesn't bounce. We declined.

Obsessions can be harmless, but they can also be ruinous.

 

[Zapper]

I have a family member who purchases eyeglasses compulsively -- even though he does not require corrective lenses, he owns hundreds (thousands?) of pairs, of all manner of design and lens tint. And these are not Pearl Vision glasses--these are Brioni, Cartier, Tom Ford, etc.

Thanks for the weirdest example of an obsession!

 

[Zapper]

Indeed... not sure if there's anything to it, but it does SEEM like engineers operating outside of their fields are easily trapped in extreme, silly beliefs. Supposedly a lot of suicide bombers/terrorists are engineers. At my University, there was a tenured professor of engineering who was also a prominent Holocaust denier. I guess it goes to show that engineering skill is not based on having a firm and all-encompassing grasp on the scientific method...

I've known a lot of engineers and can think of one or two mild instances of that. The one "woo-woo" leaning audiophile I know is an engineer. In addition to believing in audio magic, he also has spent a lot of money and effort on non-magical but (in my opinion) goofy ideas like single full-range speakers and open baffle speakers. (No offense, I know such things have their fans around here.) But nearly all the engineers I know are level headed people, and only a few of them are into audio, past the point of buying a decent mass-market stereo or home theatre.

To the extent that this is true (if it is), I would attribute it to personality type - obsessive, driven, higher than average intelligence, possibly on the autism spectrum. In combination these attributes can lead to unusual places - sometimes brilliant, sometimes just weird.

Another thought is that science is really two things: an accepted body of knowledge, and a process of discovery. Unfortunately, science is more often taught as the first rather than the second sense.

A lot of engineers who practice within the established realms of their discipline only engage with science in the first sense. Those of us lucky enough to have worked at the frontier of engineering, where one confronts the unknown at every turn, have engaged with science in the second, truer sense. In a process of discovery one has to continually examine the truth of ideas; many of the things you think you know may be wrong. On the other hand, someone accustomed to accepting a body of knowledge without questioning may also accept a body of nonsense without questioning. Those are the ones more likely to be "easily trapped in extreme, silly beliefs".

 

[kemmler3D]

I've known a lot of engineers and can think of one or two mild instances of that. The one "woo-woo" leaning audiophile I know is an engineer. In addition to believing in audio magic, he also has spent a lot of money and effort on non-magical but (in my opinion) goofy ideas like single full-range speakers and open baffle speakers. (No offense, I know such things have their fans around here.) But nearly all the engineers I know are level headed people, and only a few of them are into audio, past the point of buying a decent mass-market stereo or home theatre.

To the extent that this is true (if it is), I would attribute it to personality type - obsessive, driven, higher than average intelligence, possibly on the autism spectrum. In combination these attributes can lead to unusual places - sometimes brilliant, sometimes just weird.

Another thought is that science is really two things: an accepted body of knowledge, and a process of discovery. Unfortunately, science is more often taught as the first rather than the second sense.

A lot of engineers who practice within the established realms of their discipline only engage with science in the first sense. Those of us lucky enough to have worked at the frontier of engineering, where one confronts the unknown at every turn, have engaged with science in the second, truer sense. In a process of discovery one has to continually examine the truth of ideas; many of the things you think you know may be wrong. On the other hand, someone accustomed to accepting a body of knowledge without questioning may also accept a body of nonsense without questioning. Those are the ones more likely to be "easily trapped in extreme, silly beliefs".

Great post. I definitely don't want to imply that engineers are predisposed to wild / crazy beliefs in particular, maybe a subset of them are, but I don't know that. It's just noticeable because (as a non-engineer) I see engineering as a very rational / logical discipline, so engineers with apparently irrational / illogical beliefs really stand out. A taxi driver who believes in conspiracies doesn't raise any eyebrows, I guess.

Your point about established bodies of knowledge vs. process of discovery really hits the nail on the head, I think.

 

[voodooless]

Subjectivist audiophiles have made an entire industry around making s*** up, which is not problematic ... unless you think about what that implies for how those people behave when they're not writing about audio.

It is problematic either way. These companies makes billions of $$$ by peddling what can at best be described as pseudoscience, or if you prefer: idiotic woo . And this industry has a massive support system trying to keep the status quo. Sadly for them people like @amirm decided to change things and bring enlightenment! Hats off to you good Sir for taking this initiative! Hats off to this and a few other communities that cut through the nonsense and expose the industry for what it is.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Another thought is that science is really two things: an accepted body of knowledge, and a process of discovery. Unfortunately, science is more often taught as the first rather than the second sense.

So, so true! My older brothers and sisters were taught (pre-WW2) that the atom was indivisible and the smallest particle of extant matter. I, on the other hand, was born after WW2, and knew better.

After that came the Higgs boson, and blew all of us out of the water.

Jim

 

[kemmler3D]

These companies makes billions of $$$ by peddling what can at best be described as pseudoscience,

Small point of order, the entire consumer audio business, inclusive of "HEA" is only a few billion dollars per year, so making even one billion dollars as a high-end audio company would be quite an achievement. Millions? Yes, many of them probably do.

Turns out the worldwide consumer audio market is closer to $100B... google before you reply is my lesson.

 

[Punter]

Being a "Tech" myself, the main beef I have with the audiophile/high-end is the ridiculous nature of some of the products that appear. I have gleefully participated in the "Snake-Oil" threads because this is why I joined ASR in the first place and also why I compiled my "The Truth About" posts to try and provide members with a technicians take on various aspects of HiFi. I was a true enthusiast in my youth but a 1M length of high-end RCA interconnects stopped me in my tracks. Working with sound recording equipment as a profession made me an instant skeptic when I encountered this product. From then on, I bought pretty pedestrian gear and made my own speakers and let the whole audiophool thing develop outside my attention.

I stayed completely outside the "hobby" for decades until one day I saw an image of the most ridiculously over engineered turntable I had ever seen (this would have been around 2010) This led me to the Stereophile forums and once there I began to see the ludicrous tweaks and stupid cables that had proliferated while I was dissociated from any interest in HiFi. This led to a thread where I responded to this individual who was promising "a whole new method of conduction" for some idiotic product he was connected with (the Teo Audio Liquid Cable).

I went after this with some zeal and caused the mods to move the thread out of the manufacturers channel where it was causing a dangerous level of criticism and undermining the purpose of that section of the forum. That purpose was of course to allow the makers of hokey crap to gain an audience and, from Stereophiles perspective, hopefully sport up a bit of advertising dough. The individual I was exchanging posts with was being supported by a few die hard audiophools who rolled out all the usual defenses for snake-oil products. "trust your ears", "you can't say they don't make a difference if you haven't heard them" etc, etc. It took some time but I eventually managed to prove that these "cables" consisted of medical tubing filled with Galinstan, a hypereutectic alloy that is liquid at room temperature. I really enjoyed the exercise and in the process learned that Galinstan has lower conductivity than sea water! So the geniuses who were creating this novelty product either didn't know or didn't care that the cables represented a true electrical resistance that wasn't present in ordinary old copper. To promote these pointless cables as some sort of premium, system improving component is the height of dishonesty in my opinion.

It's this kind of bullshit that really grinds my gears and I dislike the idea of a business that promotes this sort of thing as some sort of luxury, quality product. To sell something like this to someone who has no understanding of the actual properties of the product is disgusting to my way of thinking and I will never miss an opportunity to prick their bubble if I can.

 

[voodooless]

Small point of order, the entire consumer audio business, inclusive of "HEA" is only a few billion dollars per year, so making even one billion dollars as a high-end audio company would be quite an achievement. Millions? Yes, many of them probably do.

I’m not talking about one company making billions though. I’m talking about the industry as a hole. Also, why limit oneself to HEA? The others are just as guilty and we’re talking about a 33 billion $ market size globally.

 

[kemmler3D]

I’m not talking about one company making billions though. I’m talking about the industry as a hole. Also, why limit oneself to HEA? The others are just as guilty and we’re talking about a 33 billion $ market size globally.

Hmm, you're right, it's actually close to $100B in total. I think I was confusing myself with the USA domestic headphone market size, my bad.

Anyway, I don't think most of consumer audio companies being snake oil-y the way HEA is. The Boses and Sonoses and Sonys of the world are somewhat guilty of fantastical marketing (they certainly aren't shy about pretending hi-res does something for the sound) but they know that their consumers don't pretend to understand any of the marketing copy except wattage and "bass". Most (not all, I guess) of their products are more or less what they claim to be, after you account for standard exaggeration.

In HEA many of the products claim to be things that are physically impossible or implausible, I think it's pretty different.

 

[Ron Texas]

It's possible to go overboard with any hobby, sport or activity. Remember the guy with the million dollar stereo.

 

[Anton D]

Being a "Tech" myself, the main beef I have with the audiophile/high-end is the ridiculous nature of some of the products that appear. I have gleefully participated in the "Snake-Oil" threads because this is why I joined ASR in the first place and also why I compiled my "The Truth About" posts to try and provide members with a technicians take on various aspects of HiFi. I was a true enthusiast in my youth but a 1M length of high-end RCA interconnects stopped me in my tracks. Working with sound recording equipment as a profession made me an instant skeptic when I encountered this product. From then on, I bought pretty pedestrian gear and made my own speakers and let the whole audiophool thing develop outside my attention.

I stayed completely outside the "hobby" for decades until one day I saw an image of the most ridiculously over engineered turntable I had ever seen (this would have been around 2010) This led me to the Stereophile forums and once there I began to see the ludicrous tweaks and stupid cables that had proliferated while I was dissociated from any interest in HiFi. This led to a thread where I responded to this individual who was promising "a whole new method of conduction" for some idiotic product he was connected with (the Teo Audio Liquid Cable).

I went after this with some zeal and caused the mods to move the thread out of the manufacturers channel where it was causing a dangerous level of criticism and undermining the purpose of that section of the forum. That purpose was of course to allow the makers of hokey crap to gain an audience and, from Stereophiles perspective, hopefully sport up a bit of advertising dough. The individual I was exchanging posts with was being supported by a few die hard audiophools who rolled out all the usual defenses for snake-oil products. "trust your ears", "you can't say they don't make a difference if you haven't heard them" etc, etc. It took some time but I eventually managed to prove that these "cables" consisted of medical tubing filled with Galinstan, a hypereutectic alloy that is liquid at room temperature. I really enjoyed the exercise and in the process learned that Galinstan has lower conductivity than sea water! So the geniuses who were creating this novelty product either didn't know or didn't care that the cables represented a true electrical resistance that wasn't present in ordinary old copper. To promote these pointless cables as some sort of premium, system improving component is the height of dishonesty in my opinion.

It's this kind of bullshit that really grinds my gears and I dislike the idea of a business that promotes this sort of thing as some sort of luxury, quality product. To sell something like this to someone who has no understanding of the actual properties of the product is disgusting to my way of thinking and I will never miss an opportunity to prick their bubble if I can.

Teo Audio!

The terminations were 'solid' with a metal part inserted into the liquid cable.

Over time, the liquid 'dissolved' the contact (i.e. the metals entered into a liquid 'solution' together.)

Their site is still active, i do not know if the cables are still sold.

They made a passive preamp using the liquid cabling inside, as well.

Wasn't it really just thermometer liquid?

Thanks for the memory.

 

[bodhi]

When thinking of this it does seem that as a hobby (at least on this forum) people really get bent over some ones personal choice and go on & on about how someone should spend there money, why that is I have no idea. I haven't noticed any "Hi my names Joe & I'm audiophile" posts though.

This happens to be one of the oldest arguments subjectivists make, going strong at least 20+ years I've been partaking in these discussions.

It's also not really true. I just don't see anyone caring at all if somebody spends 10k on some power cable. What they care about is if the person is claiming this super cable is improving the sound of his system for real, not just in his mind. Even if the person does not say outright things like "if you don't hear it your system is not good enough" or "you are just not advanced enough to spot these differences", which are decade old classics as well, it is at least implied.

So, if somebody comes to this forum claiming that his boutique DAC has better bass and cleaner treble than he is also claiming that the audience here are actually delusional dummies, listening to their music with inferior equipment. Same can be said of some of these high end companies and their marketing claims, they are implying that people are missing out on true hifi.

 

[Gibsonian]

I have a boat, am a practicing audiophile with more than 1000 albums, undermined amount of CD's and a few racks of equipment not being used. Oh and a motorcycle. Would seem I have some issues.

 

[JustJones]

I don't have a boat, sold albums years ago, ripped CDs to flac, got rid of unused equipment and never even considered buying a motorcycle. Was always to skeptical to be a card carrying audiophile and drive a Subaru.

 

[kemmler3D]

I just don't see anyone caring at all if somebody spends 10k on some power cable. What they care about is if the person is claiming this super cable is improving the sound of his system for real, not just in his mind.

Bingo...

Your bank balance is not my concern. Your private opinions about whether strands of copper gain magic powers in the presence of music are not my concern.

Spreading BS around the world, that ends up perpetuating magical thinking is problematic, irritating for many of us, and I think it's worth calling out.

Imagine if snake oil audio was not a thing. A world where the concept of a "tweak" and all this stuff just never caught on. People buy speakers and amps exclusively based on real performance. Millions (billions?) more dollars would have gone towards good engineering instead of gold-plated fairy tales. Can you imagine how much further along the field of audio engineering would be? Klippel scanners would have been commonplace 15 years ago... speakers with -60dB distortion would be a dime a dozen. Maybe.

Anyway, the snake oil has definitely deprived us of better sound to some extent, over the years. That's enough reason to fight it. If "vote with your dollars" is a concept that applies, then a lot of people are voting for leprechauns and unicorns to distribute free candy among the people.

 

[JustJones]

Bingo...

Your bank balance is not my concern. Your private opinions about whether strands of copper gain magic powers in the presence of music are not my concern.

Spreading BS around the world, that ends up perpetuating magical thinking is problematic, irritating for many of us, and I think it's worth calling out.

Imagine if snake oil audio was not a thing. A world where the concept of a "tweak" and all this stuff just never caught on. People buy speakers and amps exclusively based on real performance. Millions (billions?) more dollars would have gone towards good engineering instead of gold-plated fairy tales. Can you imagine how much further along the field of audio engineering would be? Klippel scanners would have been commonplace 15 years ago... speakers with -60dB distortion would be a dime a dozen. Maybe.

Anyway, the snake oil has definitely deprived us of better sound to some extent. That's enough reason to fight it.

How much money is wasted on homeopathy and other quack medicine.

(More dollars would have gone towards good medical research
instead of gold-plated fairy tales. )

Humans are irrational.