Why do they remaster 80's digital recordings in 192/24?

[Herbert]

Maybe this thread can be ended with a rather simple answer: How high can Instruments go?
Is there any instrument in any music culture on earth that produces a frequency spectrum up to 20.000hz?

 

[pablolie]

Maybe this thread can be ended with a rather simple answer: How high can Instruments go?
Is there any instrument in any music culture on earth that produces a frequency spectrum up to 20.000hz?

A dog whistle? I think they crack 30kHz...

But based on dogs' reactions, they'd describe the treble as "harsh" :-D

 

[tmtomh]

Maybe this thread can be ended with a rather simple answer: How high can Instruments go?
Is there any instrument in any music culture on earth that produces a frequency spectrum up to 20.000hz?

Yes, several, as far as I know. But the question, rather, is how high can human hearing go? The existence of a 30kHz harmonic of a musical note produced by a given instrument is irrelevant to human hearing and therefore irrelevant to hi-fi sound reproduction.

 

[Blumlein 88]

@eboy
If you want what I think is a sensible method of mastering using compression without ruining the results read and think about the following articles.

Bob Katz K-system.

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

Another variation on the same ideas:

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

If you have questions after looking this over, ask them.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

@eboy
If you want what I think is a sensible method of mastering using compression without ruining the results read and think about the following articles.

Bob Katz K-system.

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

Another variation on the same ideas:

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

If you have questions after looking this over, ask them.

My installation is set up in line with Bob Katz' system and it's effective.

 

[Robert C]

It depends what format the master is on in the archive. If it's on an analogue format, it will be digitised at 96 or 192 kHz. That sample rate will then be preserved through the remastering workflow. If the archive holds a digital master, then the data will be migrated from tape (e.g. Sony 1630) to PC over AES preserving the original recording rates. Sometimes you get the latter happening, but the remastering engineer uses an outboard analogue workflow and recaptures the audio in high resolution.

Lots of possibilities. Clearly the Lionel Richie example in the OP has digital in the recording chain. Could be that the original engineers mixed down to 1/2" analogue intentionally for the sound, or for convenience. Or perhaps the original master was digital (2-track DASH or 1630) but an analogue production copy was made and that is what has been used here. Impossible to say without seeing tape box provenance.

 

[Herbert]

A dog whistle? I think they crack 30kHz...

But based on dogs' reactions, they'd describe the treble as "harsh" :-D

Awaited this Joke already Does anyone has Gyöti Legitis‘ „Atmospheres“ at hand? Do not find my copy right now,
frequency range range should be broad as this video shows:

 

[WillBrink]

Because someone will buy it for a premium.

And those who buy it will claim they have magic hearing and it's worth it. The circle of life.

 

[Herbert]

To answer the question, the recording of "Atmospheres" on the Soundtrack of "2001" - dead after 17kHz,
probably due to the analog recording equipment of 1966:

 

[Herbert]

The example above leads to another question - how good is analog studio equipment.
25kHz seems to be the upper limit of pro analog multitrack gear before digital became standard
But there is probably nothing going on above 20kHz anyway:

Frequency range of musical instruments including harmonics

Based on a recent discussion in another thread about the 44.1KHz sample rate of CD's, I found a few charts showing various musical instruments and...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

This study claims the opposite, using Gamelan music

Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect | Journal of Neurophysiology

Although it is generally accepted that humans cannot perceive sounds in the frequency range above 20 kHz, the question of whether the existence of such “inaudible” high-frequency components may affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds remains unanswered. In this study, we used...

journals.physiology.org

but has a flaw - they needed to use a custom built speaker
system for playback as no HiFi speaker was able to reproduce the ultrasonics anyway.
There is no other study supporting the findings
and in my collection of 600 CDs there is one Gamelan recording...

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Whilst a properly aligned professional studio tape recorder at 15ips should be able to record and reproduce sound above 20kHz, it's tricky to have any confidence in the recording because studio monitor speakers would be unlikely to be reliable above 20k and sound engineers would not be able to hear and correct such high frequencies.

There is an interesting innovation which uses the high frequency bias that is retained on the tapes to improve remasters. It's the Plangent Process. I believe a remaster based on this should sound better than previous masters https://www.plangentprocesses.com/

 

[Koeitje]

I believe a remaster based on this should sound better than previous masters https://www.plangentprocesses.com/

And your belief is what makes it sound better to you. Fascinating how the mind works.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

And your belief is what makes it sound better to you. Fascinating how the mind works

It's probably worth reading the AES paper to understand the science behind this. A lot of "new improved mastering processes" are bunk or questionable, but this process does solve a generally accepted and well known problem with mastering (and using a tape made on machine A on machine B).

https://www.plangentprocesses.com/_files/ugd/2aa449_58e0c825b6f74ebdbb65ecd1390c2067.pdf

 

[Koeitje]

It's probably worth reading the AES paper to understand the science behind this. A lot of "new improved mastering processes" are bunk or questionable, but this process does solve a generally accepted and well known problem with mastering (and using a tape made on machine A on machine B).

https://www.plangentprocesses.com/_files/ugd/2aa449_58e0c825b6f74ebdbb65ecd1390c2067.pdf

That is interesting, looks like they use it as a way of timekeeping when coming from analog because tapes aren't perfect. So its benefits are not in the frequency domain, but the time domain.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

That is interesting, looks like they use it as a way of timekeeping when coming from analog because tapes aren't perfect. So its benefits are not in the frequency domain, but the time domain

Exactly. In my day I did a lot of work on studio-quality professional 2", 1/2" and 1/4" tape machines. We could get the wow and flutter into a good tolerance but not eliminate it. The worst case would be a tape on machine A, played back on machine B where both were at opposite tolerances. There are measurable downsides to getting this wrong. The AES paper allows the wow and flutter of Machine A to be detected and corrected for. I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want to to do this!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Comfortably Numb 192kHz at 24bit. Everything above 46kHz is noise, but frequencies below that pulse in time with the music. I've no idea what it sounds like, of course

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Comfortably Numb 192kHz at 24bit. Everything above 46kHz is noise, but frequencies below that pulse in time with the music. I've no idea what it sounds like, of course

Weirdly, the second Comfortably Numb guitar solo seems to be recorded differently. There's also something very odd involving mirroring/imaging around a 34kHz pivot! This below in the lump from 27kHz to 34kHz and then 34kHz to 41kHz.

Again, I've no idea what this sounds like, but I suspect it's wrong (unlike the ultrasonic sounds on the 1st half). So whilst a system up to 50kHz may be valid for the 1st half, I suspect rolling off before 27kHz would be best for the 2nd half!

 

[Herbert]

I wonder if the signal between 27 and 41kHz is acoustics picked up by the mic
or processing artifacts from the studio gear and plugins...?

 

[lxg208]

Wrong. They don't remix. They take the original master and compress it some more. Thats about it. Theres only one guy I know off who remixes.

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/steven-wilson-remixing-classic-albums

He takes the multitracks and reproduces the mix. This is very complicated. Heres a part of the article.

This is a slow, painstakingly intense part of the process. "I start listening to 10, 15 seconds at a time, and it'll be 'Oh yeah, the guitar's muted for those first four bars of the second verse, so I need to do that in my session.' Then I'll listen to the next 10 seconds, and 'Ah, OK, there's a phaser been added to the hi-hat there.' And so on through each song."

Completely different than a remaster. Remasters are often a sham and can be made by adding a bit of EQ. There often worse sounding than the original, IMHO not far from snake oil.
Remixes can sound better. Listen to some of Steve's.

I complete agree, the so called HD version is worse than the CD version. They compressrf it make it sounds loader and perceived as better. It is not as outrageous as others, but it's definitely not better.

 

[thulle]

Maybe this thread can be ended with a rather simple answer: How high can Instruments go?
Is there any instrument in any music culture on earth that produces a frequency spectrum up to 20.000hz?

Many, crash cymbals being the most famous for high frequency energy I think.

https://ttsetup.com/images/Theres_life_above_20_kilohertz_A_survey_of_musical_instrument_spectra_to_102.4_kHz.pdf

Might be the reason why they're among the instruments that get distorted the most by lossy compression algorithms. And maybe part of why they sound so tame in recordings in general compared to live.