Why are people using higher priced dacs in 'stacks'

[David James]

Perhaps this has been discussed (kind of hard to believe it hasn't) but I've been in research mode for a headphone amp/dac and purchased a Qudelix, but the same question keeps coming to mind as I read these reviews. The idea is expressed all over this thread that DACs are not audibly different, and that the issues that used to exist have been resolved in low price DACs.

At the same time I read superlatives being used to describe the benefits of various 'stacks'. A recent thread I came across advised the OP that the Topping stack was state of the art, but why spend the money?

 

[scrubb]

but why spend the money?

Good question. I'm sure your Qudelix is as neutral and and clean with headphones as options 8x as expensive. I have a Schiit Modi and Magni stack for about 2x the price of the Qudelix-5K. The reasoning was that the Modi provides more input options and the Magni has adjustable gain and high output. Additionally as separate components, I have more versatility; for instance I could decide to use the Modi with a receiver and speakers instead of as a headphone set-up.

 

[Joe Smith]

Yes, Modi is hard to beat for inputs. I like and am currently using my JDS Labs Atom+ but it does lack a coax input. I'm using it for double duty with streaming and a Sony DVD player via optical input.

Given my equipment overall, I don't see any reason to go "up the DAC ladder" to higher cost units. Particularly as I'm still tied to Spotify because of my wife's preferences and the whole higher-res thing with them seems to be a dead issue.

 

[DVDdoug]

Why are people using higher-priced dacs in 'stacks'

1. There can be lots of reasons for choosing particular equipment, unrelated to sound quality.

2. MOST of the "audiophile community" is nuts! This site and HydrogenAudio are a couple of rational-scientific exceptions.

See Audiophooolery

 

[DLS79]

At the same time I read superlatives being used to describe the benefits of various 'stacks'. A recent thread I came across advised the OP that the Topping stack was state of the art, but why spend the money?

when people mention stacks they are usually talking about a dac and an amp stacked on top of each other.


The reason to go to higher priced dacs is if you need more or special inputs and outputs, or if you need features not currently available on cheaper units like PEQ.


A stack.

I've even seen a 4 devise topping stack
D50s
A50S
M50
P50

Edit found a shot of it.

 

[Dunring]

My daily driver is a Topping A30Pro and D10b DAC and it's all anyone needs. I have many much more expensive ones, but personally $200 is the most I'd ever spend. Features I like are no MQA, no Bluetooth, one good default filter, and for amplifiers a silent noise floor for IEMs.

 

[Berwhale]

At the same time I read superlatives being used to describe the benefits of various 'stacks'. A recent thread I came across advised the OP that the Topping stack was state of the art, but why spend the money?

I use my Topping EX5 DAC/Amp with my Sennheiser HD 660 S at my desk in my study.
I use my Qudelix 5K with IEMs at my desk in my study, whilst commuting, at my desk in my office and sometimes in bed.
I use my Topping D50s/A50s/P50 'stack' with my Drop HE-4XX in my easy chair.

I had none of this kit before I joined ASR four years ago. Get out while you still can.

 

[kemmler3D]

At the same time I read superlatives being used to describe the benefits of various 'stacks'.

A subjective comment is only as reliable as the data that backs it up. "The sound of this DAC is very transparent and musical" is probably just confirming the reviewer was in a good mood when they listened to it. It's slightly less informative than "this pizza is tasty to me."

but why spend the money?

1) To get a DAC that actually has the output voltage that you need, if it's more than normal.
2) To get a DAC that has the outputs and features you want.
3) Because you like the looks
4) To have confidence in returns / warranties / support.
5) Because you want performance beyond audibility, for whatever reason.

That's about it.

 

[b7676]

The first reason is by far the shakiest;
For the sake of 2 channel?
The second reason are the medium of your music collection.
Lossless codec(s) and usb controllers?
The third is noticing you did not like an onboard dac/amp.
Forgotton most of the hours listening to realtek chips, but enjoy recalling the burr brown systems? Because Discmans were mostly excellent and plainly of superior fidelity to the itunes garden for years and years, if not still?

Price/performance of the modern Topping units are class leading. The price/performance scaling of Topping's lineup is unmatched in almost any hobby. The expected level of maturity is regularly exceeded.

 

[Curvature]

why spend the money?

Because it looks cool on your desk.

DACs do alter the sound. This is not hard to find out; just try out a few DACs with similar linearity measurements (without load) and listen through your headphones. I haven't studied this deeply enough to understand all the factors that cause it.

This is wrong. Discussed a million times here with lots of supporting data.

 

[Middle Earth]

I think you are on the wrong forum!

Nice
@amirm may like posts like this
Why does the forum insist on orthodoxy ?
I don’t care what other people like to do or think
There is useful information here to be sure, but ASR has its own reputation
This dismissive attitude bemuses me

 

[DLS79]

Nice
@amirm may like posts like this
Why does the forum insist on orthodoxy ?
I don’t care what other people like to do or think
There is useful information here to be sure, but ASR has its own reputation
This dismissive attitude bemuses me

Check the thread the comments were moved to!

 

[Coverpage]

Nice
@amirm may like posts like this
Why does the forum insist on orthodoxy ?
I don’t care what other people like to do or think
There is useful information here to be sure, but ASR has its own reputation
This dismissive attitude bemuses me

Yup for a science forum, there's sure alot of censorship.

 

[BDWoody]

Yup for a science forum, there's sure alot of censorship.

Your posts were moved, not censored.

We don't delete posts for being wrong.

We have a lot of nonsense to deal with here, so we try to keep it all in one place to minimize the overall noise.

 

[Middle Earth]

Yup for a science forum, there's sure alot of censorship.

This is a tiny island in the sea of people interested in audio, and the notion that a higher rated DAC is preferable to even the lowest tier Denafrips R2R is, as I stated, bemusing.
It would seemingly surprise people in this bubble that the audio world out there does not agree.
This is most unfortunate as, again, there is useful information here.
I respect what @amirm is doing but the arrogance and confirmation bias diminishes that good work.
I for one would like to see more respect from the forum in general when someone is sincerely asking questions or even worse prefers something else.

 

[BDWoody]

It would seemingly surprise people in this bubble that the audio world out there does not agree.

That would surprise no-one. That's exactly why this forum continues to grow and thrive, as this is one of the very few places where people can come, expecting the advice they get is based on reality and not on storytime.

That big audio world out there is welcome to refute the base-line position of this site, which is that there is nothing magical in audio other than the music itself, and competently engineered, competently chosen components are going to be nigh unto impossible to differentiate under controlled testing conditions.


Here is an excerpt from an interview with the founder of Stereophile, J. Gordon Holt:

"Do you see any signs of future vitality in high-end audio?

Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel."

https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/index.html#:~:text=Do you see,spreading my gospel.



I could stand with less of the derisive amusement expressed by some of our members to be honest, but when someone shows up spouting the standard nonsense, while being generally insulting and condescending while *not* flexing his credentials (which unfortunately around here puts him in the kiddy pool), that's where the posts go.

Sorry if this is all a surprise, but that's kinda how it goes.

 

[David James]

Ok, so this is all going off in a certain direction.

Regarding my question, features and novelty it seems. Ok.

Regarding the fun that is now unfolding…

“I respect what @amirm is doing but the arrogance and confirmation bias diminishes that good work.”

Please show examples of confirmation bias if you are going to make statements like that.

There are many who can’t take what they read here perhaps because it suggests they have been duped, invalidated the claims that justify the stratospheric price they’ve paid for their gear, calls into to question their beliefs in golden eardom, Or even threatens their business model as their customers learn that cost does not equal performance. When people fling sh** here they need to back up their statements.

The thing I don’t get about so many comments claiming some form of delusion of people who come to this site is that the DATA IS RIGHT THERE. RIGHT OUT IN PLAIN VIEW. if there is an issue with the methodology than for the love of dogs point it out. I suspect the testers around here can handle it. That’s what a forum like this is for.

 

[Middle Earth]

Please show examples of confirmation bias if you are going to make statements like that.

That two DACs that test the same sound the same.
That a DAC that tests lower is by definition lesser and less desirable.
A post was moved from this thread that stated that DACs alter sound.
This is absolutely true but it may be more accurate to say “have their own sound.”

”That's exactly why this forum continues to grow and thrive”

I could not find how many members there are on this forum.
How many are there ?

Normally forums put the information out so it is easy to find.
Even small forums.
This took zero effort to find:

AVS Forum

• 34M posts
• 1.5M members

I had a few questions on a DIY and knew nothing about the AVS forum and got a lot of kind and constructive responses and courteous help from the members.
Imagine that.

I have never seen the hostility and rudeness exhibited here on other audio forums
It seems not only tolerated but encouraged here

 

[Berwhale]

I could not find how many members there are on this forum.
How many are there ?

*edit* Actually, that's people on-line. Not total members, not sure i've seen that anywhere either.

 

[Middle Earth]

Thank You

View attachment 351742

*edit* Actually, that's people on-line. Not total members, not sure i've seen that anywhere either.