What's the difference?

[Sparky]

Hi guys.

Can anyone explain the fundamental difference between these two amplifiers?

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-one-se-nc500dm-mkii-dual-mono-stereo-amp

And this:

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-se-1et400a-dual-mono-stereo-amp

Other than the price difference of course.

I spoke to Colin @ Nord on Thursday and forgot to ask this question and, with him being as busy as he is, didn't want to ring back with such a mundane question.
He's a fantastic guy and a joy to speak to.
He's very knowledgeable and was happy to discuss my requirements.

If you're on here Colin, keep up the great work!

Mike.

 

[Fluffy]

For one they wrote the specs and for the other one they didn't.

 

[VMAT4]

The latter amp features the latest amp modules from Bruno Putzey. May be more powerful. I believe you're using Spendor A7 speakers. If you buy it don't think of turning your volume all the way up. I believe those modules can put out more than 200 watts peak.

 

[Sparky]

The latter amp features the latest amp modules from Bruno Putzey. May be more powerful. I believe you're using Spendor A7 speakers. If you buy it don't think of turning your volume all the way up. I believe those modules can put out more than 200 watts peak.

Hehehe. Yeah, I considered the dangers of pumping the full output into my pride-n-joys..
I use an RME ADI-2 so I'll have complete control (so he says)

 

[VMAT4]

Hehehe. Yeah, I considered the dangers of pumping the full output into my pride-n-joys..
I use an RME ADI-2 so I'll have complete control (so he says)

See this review for a comparison to the latter amp, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/ .

 

[Sparky]

For one they wrote the specs and for the other one they didn't.

That was just too helpful @Fluffy

Ive heard of keep it simple but sheeeesh...

 

[Fluffy]

The latter amp features the latest amp modules from Bruno Putzey. May be more powerful. I believe you're using Spendor A7 speakers. If you buy it don't think of turning your volume all the way up. I believe those modules can put out more than 200 watts peak.

Wait a second. I think I spotted a misunderstanding here of how amps work. you are aware that the amount of amplification depends on the gain and not on the wattage, right?

That was just too helpful @Fluffy

I wanted to help but sense they didn't write the specs I couldn't.

 

[Sparky]

See this review for a comparison to the latter amp, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/ .

Thanks pal. I'll Check it out...

 

[Sparky]

Wait a second. I think I spotted a misunderstanding here of how amps work. you are aware that the amount of amplification depends on the gain and not on the wattage, right?

Yeah but his comment was a fair one no?

I get what he's saying. I think he understands that I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to this game.
Not like the rest of you...

 

[VMAT4]

Wait a second. I think I spotted a misunderstanding here of how amps work. you are aware that the amount of amplification depends on the gain and not on the wattage, right?


I wanted to help but sense they didn't write the specs I couldn't.

My Bad. But Amir's review of a kit using the ET 400a modules could resolve a few issues.

 

[Sparky]

My Bad. But Amir's review of a kit using the ET 400a modules could resolve a few issues.

Just read the review! What an outstanding result!
Mind blown...

 

[Sparky]

So there is clearly no sonic difference unless you use different op-amps.
Looking at the review of the NC500, the ET 400a is a much cleaner unit.

 

[VMAT4]

From Fluffy,

Wait a second. I think I spotted a misunderstanding here of how amps work. you are aware that the amount of amplification depends on the gain and not on the wattage, right?

This may be crucial, from Amir's review,

Note that the main offering here is the 1ET400A. The Amp Connector board is offered as convenience. In that regard, I tested the amplifier with and without the extra gain that the connector board provides. Alas, I wish there was something in between. You get full power with as little as 1.5 volt with the extra gain but need 11+ volts without it. I like to see manufacturers build a gain stage that produces full power at 4 volt which we routinely get out of source products (e.g. DACs).

Let's assume The Nord amp will produce full power at 4 volts peak to peak.

 

[Fluffy]

As I understood his post, he recommended you to not turn the volume all the way up from fear it could blow out your speakers, and quoted a peak wattage of 200 watts as the reason. But the reality is that what determines the amount of volume amplification isn't the peak wattage of the amp, but how much gain it has. Most amplifiers come with a standard amount of gain, and I see 26 db in this case which is normal.

A speaker can possibly blow out when you exceed its power handling. For the Spendor A7 speakers I found a power handling value of 25–200W. Since they are 8 ohms, an amp that delivers up to 200W into 8 ohm can be safely turned all the way up, theoretically. And if an amplifier delivers more than 200W, it can potentially damage the speakers.

But, there is another important specification that you need to take into account – the speaker's sensitivity. It determines how much SPL (=actual loudness) you get for every watt you put in. If turning the amplifier all the way up will result in a higher SPL than you could possibly bear, you won't listen at its max volume anyway, and you won't ever reach the peak wattage.

The best check is to play something and turn the volume slowly up until it becomes too loud for comfort. If you haven't reach the full volume of the amplifier, then you're probably fine.

 

[Sparky]

As I understood his post, he recommended you to not turn the volume all the way up from fear it could blow out your speakers, and quoted a peak wattage of 200 watts as the reason. But the reality is that what determines the amount of volume amplification isn't the peak wattage of the amp, but how much gain it has. Most amplifiers come with a standard amount of gain, and I see 26 db in this case which is normal.

A speaker can possibly blow out when you exceed its power handling. For the Spendor A7 speakers I found a power handling value of 25–200W. Since they are 8 ohms, an amp that delivers up to 200W into 8 ohm can be safely turned all the way up, theoretically. And if an amplifier delivers more than 200W, it can potentially damage the speakers.

But, there is another important specification that you need to take into account – the speaker's sensitivity. It determines how much SPL (=actual loudness) you get for every watt you put in. If turning the amplifier all the way up will result in a higher SPL than you could possibly bear, you won't listen at its max volume anyway, and you won't ever reach the peak wattage.

The best check is to play something and turn the volume slowly up until it becomes too loud for comfort. If you haven't reach the full volume of the amplifier, then you're probably fine.

Yes. This makes absolute perfect sense.
Who in their right mind would turn the volume up to max anyway? Unless you have an amp that was underpowered for the speakers you have.
In that case, if you're having to put the amp on full volume to achieve the desired SPL or listening volume, then it's clear you need an amp upgrade.

I would like to think that in this case, my ears would tell me long before the speakers decided to give up the ghost.
Either that or the smash round the head off the wife, either way, i ain't turning up up too loud.. (Unless she's out)....

 

[Fluffy]

Here is another thing – if you turn the volume all the way up and it doesn't give you the loudness you need, it could be either one (or both) of two causes -

Either your amp isn't delivering enough wattage to your power hungry speakers, and at peak volume the amp clips. This is bad and can lead to distortion that can damage the speakers. In that case you need a more powerful amp.

Or, your speakers might not be sensitive enough, and even at the peak wattage of the amp they convert electrical power to insufficient amount of sonic energy. Though it is likely they will exceed max power handling way before that and might blow out. In either case that means you need more efficient speakers.

In most normal home listening situations, I don't think any of these cases are likely to apply. And there are simple calculators to check if your gear and listening conditions will achieve sufficient loudness, like this one: https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[Sparky]

Here is another thing – if you turn the volume all the way up and it doesn't give you the loudness you need, it could be either one (or both) of two causes -

Either your amp isn't delivering enough wattage to your power hungry speakers, and at peak volume the amp clips. This is bad and can lead to distortion that can damage the speakers. In that case you need a more powerful amp.

Or, your speakers might not be sensitive enough, and even at the peak wattage of the amp they convert electrical power to insufficient amount of sonic energy. Though it is likely they will exceed max power handling way before that and might blow out. In either case that means you need more efficient speakers.

In most normal home listening situations, I don't think any of these cases are likely to apply. And there are simple calculators to check if your gear and listening conditions will achieve sufficient loudness, like this one: https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Very useful information there! Thank you!

 

[DonH56]

"Not loud enough"... Here are 10 off-the-cuff thoughts, which means an expert can probably think of at least ten more:

1. Not enough output voltage from the source for the amplifier to produce enough output;
2. Converse would be not enough gain in the amplifier to deliver the output power required from the input voltage available from the source;
3. Power amplifier cannot deliver sufficient output power;
4. Conversely, speakers not sensitive enough to deliver the desired loudness from the available amplifier power;
5. Speakers cannot provide sufficient output due to e.g. physical limitations (compression, physical clipping, blown fuse, etc.);
6. Speakers do not provide sufficient frequency response (e.g. not enough bass, or a dip in the midrange) to achieve desired loudness;
7. Listening position too far from speakers (sound falls off rapidly with distance) or conversely poor speaker positioning (see next point);
8. Room etc. interactions suppressing some frequencies (e.g. bass null, SBIR, comb filter, etc. reduces the loudness of certain frequencies);
9. Listener position blocking or suppressing some sounds, e.g. laying down or sitting in a high-backed stuffed chair that absorbs sound; or,
10. Listener is hearing-impaired.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[Sparky]

I'm not necessarily interested in loudness per se.
It's detail and clarity across the entire frequency spectrum I'm interested in.
Don't get me wrong, I like to play certain tracks loud when I get the opportunity especially my favourite.... Holst: The Planets. In particular, Saturn and Jupiter. Those two tracks have some unholy deep organ notes which are so so addictive...