What new measurement can we develop to explain the difference in what we heard

[SIY]

Looks like there are a few that have a bit more than a 0.1dB variance, but that's about as wide as solid state gets. Tube, on the other hand, gets higher, +/- 0.5dB or more.

Yep, it's all encapsulated in source impedance rather than ability to drive that load.

 

[Hayabusa]

Example?

A bit extreme example: I once measured a Quad 303 on the output while a Solosound electrostatic speaker was connected.
There was a wopping +4dB peak at 20KHz.
It was a resonance of the 303 output coil with the load of the Solosound.
In this case I had to increase the L of the output coil to minimise the effect.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Speculating about the possibility that as of now non-measurable differences could potentially result in audible differences is not worth consideration until the existence of the audible difference has been rigorously demonstrated.

It is not as if we were examining some strange correlation such as audiophiles having a lower life expectancy than the average population, in which case an open-ended investigation could be warranted and a full examination/analysis of possible confounding factors should be done.

Here we have nothing, except for feelings and random thoughts on the Internet.

My own unchanged systems can sound wonderful or awful to me, depending on the day/mood. In some cases, this is a huge subjective difference.

I have only two options here

1) something has changed in the way I subjectively experience music. Usually described as "I am in no mood for..."
2) some mysterious unmeasurable physical process has significantly perturbed my system.

Which one is the most likely?

Well yes, I must agree that my mood, like yours, frequently changes my enjoyment of my system very greatly. However, in my case, it doesn't much change my perception of the SQ except to make me more annoyed by the faults.

So there is a vast body of anecdotal evidence for sound difference AND there is notable consistency in the nature of those differences among experienced audiophiles. But anecdotal evidence, (especially when there is much of it), should not be dismissed out of hand: it is a legitimate basis for more rigorous investigation.

Regarding scientific rigor, testing requires both validity and duplicability, (reliability). The duplicability may very well restrict the scope or applicability of the validity. Psychoacoustic, (e.g. ABX testing for differences),, like psychoWhatever testing in general, is fraught with that difficulty.

 

[SIY]

A bit extreme example: I once measured a Quad 303 on the output while a Solosound electrostatic speaker was connected.
There was a wopping +4dB peak at 20KHz.
It was a resonance of the 303 output coil with the load of the Solosound.
In this case I had to increase the L of the output coil to minimise the effect.

Yes, capacitive loads can often cause funny things. But the claim was that it's inductive loads that are the issue.

 

[solderdude]

So as music is complex waveform and not a sinewave,
I wonder if there is/are additional measurement that can explain differences what we heard in audio amplifier sound quality that is not explained by 1-4 above via sinewave signal inputs.

Nulling will do just that. It's an old technique. With proper analysis you can even see what is phase and amplitude related.
Furthermore this can be done with actual loads with music at levels you want.

You just need to record the null and the input signal.

 

[KSTR]

Yes, capacitive loads can often cause funny things. But the claim was that it's inductive loads that are the issue.

Phase-sensitive SOA protection in an undersized class-A/B output kicking in?

 

[SIY]

Phase-sensitive SOA protection in an undersized class-A/B output kicking in?

Cosmically possible, but I admit I've never seen this in the wild.

 

[Hotwetrat]

2 amps could have identical measured wattage into 4 ohm, but load it on a real speaker and both amps will differ in bass performance.

.... Dude

Can this be a thing ?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...here-would-one-go-from-the-sa300.22462/page-2

Last post.

I am trying to figure out if what I know I heard, I actually heard, or imagined (subjectively the same?)

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Speculating about the possibility that as of now non-measurable differences could potentially result in audible differences is not worth consideration until the existence of the audible difference has been rigorously demonstrated.

It is not as if we were examining some strange correlation such as audiophiles having a lower life expectancy than the average population, in which case an open-ended investigation could be warranted and a full examination/analysis of possible confounding factors should be done.

Here we have nothing, except for feelings and random thoughts on the Internet.

My own unchanged systems can sound wonderful or awful to me, depending on the day/mood. In some cases, this is a huge subjective difference.

I have only two options here

1) something has changed in the way I subjectively experience music. Usually described as "I am in no mood for..."
2) some mysterious unmeasurable physical process has significantly perturbed my system.

Which one is the most likely?

"examining some strange correlation such as audiophiles having a lower life expectancy than the average population, in which case an open-ended investigation could be warranted and a full examination/analysis of possible confounding factors should be done. "

No need! They're spending their insulin budget on speaker cables!

 

[Hotwetrat]

"examining some strange correlation such as audiophiles having a lower life expectancy than the average population, in which case an open-ended investigation could be warranted and a full examination/analysis of possible confounding factors should be done. "

No need! They're spending their insulin budget on speaker cables!

Potentially just more obsessive personalities hence elevated stress/cortisol levels and that's just the start of it! And oddly cortisol does affect blood sugar levels, it's a catabolic hormone which breaks down tissue and releases as sugar into the blood stream through a process called gluconeogenesis, hence stress does indeed have a negative affect on insulin sensitivity! (as in insulin resistance/type 2 diabetes) - I'd have t odouble check all this it's been a while and this is off the top of my head however make no mistake there could be scientific traceable factors as to why 'audiophiles' (specially those on a budget!?? = most?) don't live as long LOL

.....JOY!

 

[BDWoody]

So there is a vast body of anecdotal evidence for sound difference AND there is notable consistency in the nature of those differences among experienced audiophiles.

 

[Gorgonzola]

So there is a vast body of anecdotal evidence for sound difference AND there is notable consistency in the nature of those differences among experienced audiophiles. ...

View attachment 131737

Looks like you didn't read the next sentence ...

... But anecdotal evidence, (especially when there is much of it), should not be dismissed out of hand: it is a legitimate basis for more rigorous investigation.

As Moderator you ought to take a more balanced stance.

 

[BDWoody]

But anecdotal evidence, (especially when there is much of it), should not be dismissed out of hand: it is a legitimate basis for more rigorous investigation.

Why is it legitimate, if there is no actual evidence it exists?

Create the evidence, then it can't just be dismissed. Why no evidence?

As Moderator you ought to take a more balanced stance.

Balance? It's anecdote against evidence. People come here wanting help validating imagination. 'Balance' isn't encouraging it...

 

[MasterApex]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-what-we-hear.23610/

Thanks for sharing this.
Good to know that I am not alone in searching for additional objective measurement metric to explain sound quality difference we heard.

I am posting this under amplifier forum because some of us have heard sound quality differences (with the same source/player/cables/speakers) between amplifiers that can not be explained by existing their published THD/IMD/Freq Response measurement.

It is typically easier to notice the difference when playing a life recording (wide dynamic sound range, 50dB swing from soft to momentary short burst peak) classical orchestra music (like Imperial March John Williams or 1812 overture) at playing moderately loud level.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Why is it legitimate, if there is no actual evidence it exists?

Create the evidence, then it can't just be dismissed. Why no evidence?

Balance? It's anecdote against evidence. People come here wanting help validating imagination. 'Balance' isn't encouraging it...

Ha! Still didn't read the whole paragraph, eh?

Real scientists know that science is never settled; they like to be proven wrong. They know that contrary evidence may include anecdote which then should lead them on to renewed and rigorous investigation.

Are you a scientist? Or merely an engineer?

 

[BDWoody]

Ha! Still didn't read the whole paragraph, eh?

Real scientists know that science is never settled; they like to be proven wrong. They know that contrary evidence may include anecdote which then should lead them on to renewed and rigorous investigation.

Are you a scientist? Or merely an engineer?

That's great and all...but the contrary anecdotal evidence has to become real evidence at some point.

Here's how it goes:

Q: "Help me identify what I'm hearing! I know it's there!"

A: "Have you done any controlled tests that can be presented as a starting point?"

Q: "No, but lots of people hear it too!"

A: "Are there any that have controlled tests to demonstrate it?"

Q: "No, but so many can't be wrong!"

A: "Should be easy to prove then, right?"

Q: "I can't be bothered with that, that's what I want you to do for me."

A: "..."


You'd think, by now, someone would have proven something, if there was something to prove.

Maybe you can be the one to break the seemingly eternal logjam...?

 

[SIY]

Ha! Still didn't read the whole paragraph, eh?

Real scientists know that science is never settled; they like to be proven wrong. They know that contrary evidence may include anecdote which then should lead them on to renewed and rigorous investigation.

Are you a scientist? Or merely an engineer?

Key word is “evidence.”

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have read many amp reviews that show measurement for:
1) THD + Noise with sinewave
2) Intermodulation distortion with sinewave
3) SNR with sinewave
4) Frequency response with dummy load 84/2 ohm

While they are useful I often wonder if there are other measurement that can be developed to explain what we heard.

For example when comparing two amps with similar measurement quality per but sounds very different on a full range speaker say a B&W 802D3.

Very often we observe :
1) The tonal balance does not sound the same - more weight (almost like connecting same speaker speaker with 24AWG wires vs 10AWG cables), brightness difference (almost like there was treble settings)
2) Different comfort level for loudness (measured by SPL) . When playing life classical recording like 1821 overture (wide swing dynamic from 40dB to 90dB sound) , our ears are more comfortable playing louder with Amp A vs Amp B even though their 1-4 measurement does not clearly explain it (similar frequency response, etc) but our SPL meter shows that we are more willing to crack the volume up higher. Perceived distortion ? In movie theater , the sound is so loud that we can't carry conversation but our ears are ok with it.

So as music is complex waveform and not a sinewave,
I wonder if there is/are additional measurement that can explain differences what we heard in audio amplifier sound quality that is not explained by 1-4 above via sinewave signal inputs.

IME if there is a difference between amps it is one of 2 things.

The output impedance difference between the amps causing an audible change to the frequency response of the speaker due to the complex impedance presented by its load.

Clipping, perhaps one amp struggles to drive the complex load at some frequencies despite apparently adequate power into a resistive load or is simply not powerful enough for the peaks.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I apologize to BDWoody, SIY, and like-minded folk. I did not originally intend to get into a length repartee on the subject and I won't bore people further.

Also, I concede that current, rigorous investigation does suggest random subjects cannot hear differences between amplifiers with statistical significance.

 

[SIY]

Also, I concede that current, rigorous investigation does suggest random subjects cannot hear differences between amplifiers with statistical significance.

Two quibbles: differences between amps CAN be heard if there’s overload or frequency response differences (assuming that one or both amps aren’t pathologically defective). The latter can occur with amps having high source impedance with respect to the speaker load.

Second, I’m unaware of testing using random subjects. If the two factors above are controlled for, skilled and experienced listeners cannot distinguish between electronics, or at least have not shown to be able to after 4 or 5 decades of trying.