What do floor standers really bring to the table?

[Sal1950]

In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense),

With the RZ50 the subs are automatically active in "stereo" mode.

I'm confused?
What's a RZ59, Google can't seem to find it?
What mode is the RZ50 in when the subs don't turn on?

 

[Ultrasonic]

In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense), as there is very little material below 80 Hz. So the F208s do all the heavy lifting.

If this is truly the case I'd suggest you stop relying on the 'auto sense' feature of your subs and switch them on manually. I simply don't believe you aren't losing out on meaningful musical content otherwise. If you don't believe me try using the RTA function in REW to see what extra signal you gain when listening to music if you do, although I'd hope your ears would be enough to tell you that having the sub on made a positive difference.

 

[Schollaudio]

One of many things to consider if either floor stander or stand mount is tweeter height and\or baffle angle. A listener would benefit from taking the time to find the best height or angle to point the speaker toward the listener and positioning them best for that point. That could be having the tweeter 36 to 46" high depending on design.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Now that I've spent a couple days finally playing around with a MiniDSP in concert with REW, I have a larger appreciation for what software like Audyssey XT32 can do, especially for those sorely lacking in patience (/eagerly raises hand). In my room, I have not yet been able to appreciably best in a few hours what XT32 does in minutes. After making several tweaks to my dual subs within the MiniDSP and then running Audyssey, REW actually showed a very nice plot (slightly smoother than prior). However, in listening to some bass-heavy material, something was clearly missing. Fireworks exploded with a sort of flappy FFFFPPT noise. Yeah, the couch shook a little bit, but is this really what "correct" bass sounds like? Surely not. I removed the MiniDSP from the chain and went back to using both sub outputs from my Denon, and - BOOM, proper fireworks again! Of course it turns out I was overdriving the MiniDSP into clipping. So, while obviously not an insurmountable problem, I've now introduced yet another variable into the system that needs to be carefully accounted for, monitored, and adjusted.

Of course, Audyssey is not without its quirks and the companion app is virtually mandatory, but at the end of the day if it's getting my system ~90% of the way there with ~500% less effort, that seems acceptable to me. Prior generation (and better-measuring than current) Denon AVRs have recently plummeted in price. It does seem counterproductive to discount such an appealing cost-to-effort ratio because it includes "extra stuff".

Are you possibly comparing a miniDSP/REW technique based on measurements at a single position to a multi-position Audyssey measurement set? REW filters based on an average of multiple measurements around your MLP would likely improve the results if you were. Possibly weighted to the central location more.

 

[Rottmannash]

I'm confused?
What's a RZ59, Google can't seem to find it?
What mode is the RZ50 in when the subs don

sorry-RZ50. It's the new Onkyo Dirac Live enabled AVR.

 

[Sal1950]

sorry-RZ50. It's the new Onkyo Dirac Live enabled AVR.

OK, thanks.
I've got to agree with Ultrasonic. if the subs aren't turning on basically with the system, then when the do activate it's too late, that needed bass passage has already passed. I'd recommend either having them on full time or not at all. If like you say the F208s don't really need them with most material you won't miss them.
Another better option is to build a tipper system to turn on power to the subs like I did for my poweramps. Then leaving them switched on full time won't make for unnecessary power costs but the subs will always be active whenever needed.
Just a thought.

BTW, I've never seen my SVS subs not come on almost immediately when the system comes on and starts playing music of any kind.
I don't believe them not coming on until the system has bass lines demanding it, is the intended mode of opperation for the auto-on sensing system???

 

[Rottmannash]

OK, thanks.
I've got to agree with Ultrasonic. if the subs aren't turning on basically with the system, then when the do activate it's too late, that needed bass passage has already passed. I'd recommend either having them on full time or not at all. If like you say the F208s don't really need them with most material you won't miss them.
Another better option is to build a tipper system to turn on power to the subs like I did for my poweramps. Then leaving them switched on full time won't make for unnecessary power costs but the subs will always be active whenever needed.
Just a thought.

BTW, I've never seen my SVS subs not come on almost immediately when the system comes on and starts playing music of any kind.
I don't believe them not coming on until the system has bass lines demanding it, is the intended mode of opperation for the auto-on sensing system???

It may be because they're crossed so low @ 80 Hz. They will, at times turn on when playing modern music but when playing music from the 60's, 70's and 80's there doesn't seem to be much bass in the music-even if they do turn on they don't add much to the sound-compared to HT where w/o the subs it sounds anemic.

 

[Sal1950]

It may be because they're crossed so low @ 80 Hz.

As are mine. Actually that's not considered low but average even for a stand mounts.
What do you think is happening to your carefully configured Dirac bass response when the subs only come on now and then when they think they should?
Your call.

 

[Rottmannash]

As are mine. Actually that's not considered low but average even for a stand mounts.
What do you think is happening to your carefully configured Dirac bass response when the subs only come on now and then when they think they should?
Your call.

The thing is the subs are quite prominent, as they should be when listening to HT (windows rattle in their frames) but w/ 2 channel music not so much-it doesn't bother me, I just find it odd how little they put out w/ most 2 channel music. Even w/ Dirac disabled the subs aren't any louder-of course the subs are at the same -6 dB level on all 3 DL slots and when off as well so the sub levels are identical w/ any of the slots or when off.

It's no biggie-just interesting. Back to the regular programming.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The thing is the subs are quite prominent, as they should be when listening to HT (windows rattle in their frames) but w/ 2 channel music not so much-it doesn't bother me, I just find it odd how little they put out w/ most 2 channel music. Even w/ Dirac disabled the subs aren't any louder-of course the subs are at the same -6 dB level on all 3 DL slots and when off as well so the sub levels are identical w/ any of the slots or when off.

It's no biggie-just interesting. Back to the regular programming.

Sounds like something isn't set up quite right in whatever mode you're using for music on your receiver. Perhaps the subs simply aren't active in 2-channel mode when your speakers are set to large. There's usually a setting where you can choose "LFE" or "LFE+Main", and you have to choose the latter to get output from the subs other than the LFE-track in movies if your speakers are set to large.

This will cause the subs to overlap with the speakers though, which usually isn't ideal (the speakers should be set to small).

 

[fineMen]

... how little they put out w/ most 2 channel music.

+1, clearly broken. Get yourself some measurement equipment, in case including the personnel to use it, to check and fix the reason.

 

[Rottmannash]

Sounds like something isn't set up quite right in whatever mode you're using for music on your receiver. Perhaps the subs simply aren't active in 2-channel mode when your speakers are set to large. There's usually a setting where you can choose "LFE" or "LFE+Main", and you have to choose the latter to get output from the subs other than the LFE-track in movies if your speakers are set to large.

This will cause the subs to overlap with the speakers though, which usually isn't ideal (the speakers should be set to small).

I need to check to make certain I chose LFE + main. I suspect I mistakenly selected LFE only... Thanks for the suggestion(s).

 

[Newman]

I need to check to make certain I chose LFE + main. I suspect I mistakenly selected LFE only... Thanks for the suggestion(s).

I was thinking the same.

 

[mj30250]

I need to check to make certain I chose LFE + main. I suspect I mistakenly selected LFE only... Thanks for the suggestion(s).

You could also investigate the power draw with your subs in standby versus when they're switched on. For my Hsu subs, the power draw is identical in both modes, so I just leave them on full time. No more worries about whether auto-sense is working properly or not.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You could also investigate the power draw with your subs in standby versus when they're switched on. For my Hsu subs, the power draw is identical in both modes, so I just leave them on full time. No more worries about whether auto-sense is working properly or not.

Clearly you needn't doubt if the sub is on or not. -You can hear it, right? Otherwise just sell it.

 

[Rottmannash]

Clearly you needn't doubt if the sub is on or not. -You can hear it, right? Otherwise just sell it.

Shouldn't really reply to your post but I will- if you read back to the beginning I stated the subs don't do much, if anything at all listening to 2 channel music-that has nothing to do with the incredible output from them during HT use, which is >75% of my use.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Shouldn't really reply to your post but I will- if you read back to the beginning I stated the subs don't do much, if anything at all listening to 2 channel music-that has nothing to do with the incredible output from them during HT use, which is >75% of my use.

I have and I apologize for my witty remark. In this case I was just responding to mj's comment about him leaving the sub on all the time to not worry about it sensing input or not to turn on. The quote is on his comment.

 

[mj30250]

Clearly you needn't doubt if the sub is on or not. -You can hear it, right? Otherwise just sell it.

I never mentioned anything about doubt. Having a system that works consistently without a fuss is the goal.

However, once you move beyond one sub, it is indeed not always obvious if one powered up while the other(s) decided to take an extended nap.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I never mentioned anything about doubt. Having a system that works consistently without a fuss is the goal.

However, once you move beyond one sub, it is indeed not always obvious if one powered up while the other(s) decided to take an extended nap.

Oh, yeah two subs may create this issue. I know I have to keep my sub output at a bit higher gain and the attenuator on the sub lower to wake it up correctly when listening at the lowest volume.

 

[Rottmannash]

Oh, yeah two subs may create this issue. I know I have to keep my sub output at a bit higher gain and the attenuator on the sub lower to wake it up correctly when listening at the lowest volume.

both subs are linked via a shared wireless transmitter so the signal typically wakes them up but only when they sense output, not turn on from the transmitters. Iistened to some Qobuz yesterday on "stereo" mode and noted both subs did indeed "wake up" but there was almost no output-had to put my finger on the surround to even feel any vibration-for kicks I turned the sub up to 0 dB and then could hear output but still wasn't sufficient so increased to 6 dB and that sounded good. Dirac seems to have a difficult time with calculations w/ subs and they may be lower than they should be-except they sound great w/ HT.