Vintage Power from newer amp?

[JPsDeskSet]

Hi all,
I am struggle to understand what I am missing and hoping for some education.

I have an old pioneer, sx780. Sound profile aside (warm, cool, ect.) there is more punch compared to anything else I have paired my speakers with. At similar volumes the cones "move" more on the pioneer while all the other amps, you can't even see them move a higher volumes. With the pioneer the need for a sub is basically gone where all others, its required.

I have tried a Marantz sr9200 in Stereo, a Sonos Amp, and 5-6 newer class D amps. All of which fail to come even close. I have tried eq, but even when I crank it, sacrificing good sound, the drivers done seem to respond.

I am pairing them to Klipsch RP 500M's, 400M's, Paradigm Monitor SE Atoms, and Mica RB-42's.

Currently, just one RP-400M with the Pioneer (and no subwoofer) sounds more dynamic, full, punchy, bassy, than the Atom's, 500m's or Mica's, even when I add a sub. On the top end, they sound almost identical.

What am I missing?

 

[fpitas]

That's an odd result. Sure you don't have the Loudness switch engaged on the Pioneer? Amps, old or new, just don't vary like you describe.

 

[RoyRoyRoy]

Hi,
This is a total guess. But could it be that you are used to listening to the low damping factor of your Pioneer which is giving you the more punchy bass sound?

Pioneer SX780 Damping factor: 30
Marantz SR9200 Damping factor: 200

"Damping Factor (DF) is the amplifier’s ability to control speaker motion once a signal has stopped....
Damping Factor changes with frequency (as does impedance) and is most noticeable at lower frequencies. A high DF typically results in a tighter, more controlled bass, which is usually (but not always) more desirable from a listener’s point-of-view. Low DF results in soft or fat bass."

This is a basic summary of what that means: https://us.kef.com/blogs/news/damping-factor-explained
More detailed info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

 

[DVDdoug]

That's strange... It's unlikely that the Pioneer originally had "accidental" bass boost.

The visible woofer movement could certainly be related to bass boost or it could be subsonic energy and the newer amplifiers may be filtering that out. (In the old days record warp could cause a woofer to move and some equipment has a subsonic filter to remove it.)

I have tried eq,

It HAS to be bass boost, or some kind of weird low-frequency noise or distortion. The receiver probably does have a "loudness" switch which is supposed to boost the bass at low volumes. If it's not turned-on it might be broken and permanently on. The loudness switch doesn't "know" the actual volume or loudness. It just knows the position of the volume control and it may have some effect at mid-volume or at nearly full volume.

With the pioneer the need for a sub is basically gone where all others, its required.

The "need" for a subwoofer shouldn't depend on the amp/receiver. But the sub usually has it's own volume control so it's another way to boost the bass. And since most subs are powered the sub often has a more powerful amplifier than the main speakers are using.

 

[DanielT]

Klipsch RP 500M. Two-way speaker, 8 Ohm with a 5.25 bass element. It shouldn't be a problem for any amp (maybe exception some weird little tube amp) to drive them but ok I'm putting forward some hypotheses, observe hypotheses.

Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-500M 2-Way Bookshelf Speaker (Walnut, Pair)

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Damping factor on the Pioneer SX-780 is 30.

Pioneer SX-780 AM/FM Stereo Receiver Manual | HiFi Engine

www.hifiengine.com

A hypothesis, I don't even know if this could be the case, if it works like this. Someone more amp knowledgeable can answer that. Your Pioneer SX-780 triggers your woofers in your Klipsch RP 500M, so they move, but then fails to fully dampen the movement, so what you hear is more vibration, more bass. More bass but not firm clear bass.

But 30 in damping factor should be enough. Unless you have very long thin speaker cables. Like I said far-fetched but still.

Do you experience the same bass at low as well as high volume when comparing to other amps?

That could also be what fpitad thinks. It is more likely, the loudness function.

Maybe the bass tone control is turned a little more? But of course you would see that.

I guess it still has something to do with the bass tone control and or the loudness function.Wrong, broken, more turned on bass tone control without you knowing it. Loudness function on without you knowing about it. What DVDdoug is also into. That seems to be the most reasonable.
Occam's razor seems appropriate to apply, so forget about the damping factor.

Faults in the other amps you compared? Little risk that this is the case and rather far-fetched in and of itself.

We can rule out imagination since you say ..the cones "move" more on the pioneer..

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Can you calibrate for level and do a frequency sweep, comparing two amplifier?

 

[JPsDeskSet]

Ok, think I am getting somewhere with this...

On the Marantz @ +8 (max bass) and +4 through +8 (treble), it doesn't come anywhere close to the pioneer. Best I can describe the difference is like going from tiny satellite speakers to a decent bookshelfs... or the jump from bookshelfs to towers. It's not that its just EQ, they act like whole different speakers.

What I have discovered is on the Marantz, if I click over to s.direct (said to remove all tone and processing) the speakers come alive and produce a much fuller sound. I actually have to turn down the Marantz 10-15 points to get it to match volume of the standard stereo digital or stereo analog. Unfortunately S.Direct mode won't stay on once the receiver is turned off and back on. Also only works in stereo. I wish I could get my channels to sound this full while processing multichannel...

With s.direct enabled, I think the difference between the Marantz and the Pioneer are now cleanliness and tightness. They both sound full, but the Marantz has more control while the Pioneer seems to have bass boost going (loudness on). @RoyRoyRoy I'm guessing that is the DF difference?

@MaxwellsEq I will try for this tonight.

 

[RoyRoyRoy]

@JPsDeskSet Yes, the DF could (I say could, as it's a guess) affect the natural tone of the Pioneer vs the Marantz.

I don't have any Marantz, but I'm assuming the s.direct is like the Yamaha "Pure Direct" button, that does the same thing. Bypasses all of the tone controls, and just acts as a pure signal amplifier. Again, there are many more variables than just the DF that can change tone, but the DF difference between the two can't be ignored.

In Stereo, the Marantz is probably pumping more power in your 2 speakers, vs, doing whatever it does if it's in Multichannel (5.1, 6.1, etc) mode.

Btw, I also have a Sony STR-7045 and a Sony STR-6800SD (not working because I stupidly blew a fuse), and I find the older amps, compared to say my Yamaha RX-596 that Amir reviewed, have a different sound. The Yamaha is very much cleaner, and I tend to have the "Pure Direct" button always on. I actually the "CD Direct" as I input my Amazon Echo into the CD input. But yeah, they have different sounds, and I find if you listen to lots of FM, the older stereos just sound fuller, probably because they were tuned so that FM gets more "bass" or a fuller sound. Hard to put in words.

 

[DanielT]

Hi,
This is a total guess. But could it be that you are used to listening to the low damping factor of your Pioneer which is giving you the more punchy bass sound?

Pioneer SX780 Damping factor: 30
Marantz SR9200 Damping factor: 200

"Damping Factor (DF) is the amplifier’s ability to control speaker motion once a signal has stopped....
Damping Factor changes with frequency (as does impedance) and is most noticeable at lower frequencies. A high DF typically results in a tighter, more controlled bass, which is usually (but not always) more desirable from a listener’s point-of-view. Low DF results in soft or fat bass."

This is a basic summary of what that means: https://us.kef.com/blogs/news/damping-factor-explained
More detailed info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

Sorry, I saw your post now, missed it earlier. Had I seen it, I wouldn't have brought this up with DF because you did it before me.

 

[RoyRoyRoy]

@DanielT It's all good. Not your fault at all. I'm a newbie on this forum, so the moderators have to approve my posts. It just took a while before my post appeared, so there was no way for you to see it, even though I posted before!

 

[DanielT]

@DanielT It's all good. Not your fault at all. I'm a newbie on this forum, so the moderators have to approve my posts. It just took a while before my post appeared, so there was no way for you to see it, even though I posted before!

Oki.

In and of itself, I think it's strange. Speakers Klipsch RP 500M. Two-way speaker, 8 Ohm with a 5.25 bass element + amp with DF 30 should be no problem.

For those who are interested in how this with DF works, you can see it here:

Edit:
DF, under the conditions he performs the test I should add.