Value and depreciation of an expensive high SINAD product in a fast growth and cycle industry

[garbulky]

It's because DAC is just one component in the chain.
If you chain 2 devices with 120dB SINAD, the chain will have SINAD somewhere between 117dB and 114dB. And so on.
DAC and, to a lower extent, amp, is where there is NO good reason to waste quality. Because highest quality is available and, in relative terms, cheap.

Also, a good figure is a guarantee that you won't "hear" the device (or the chain) EVER.

With, say, 80dB, you don't know, since that will depend of a number of factors, details, circumstances, that you don't control or have knowledge of.
And why to take that risk if you can, for the same money, purchase a device that you can prove, for sure, and under any circumstances, won't impact your sound in any way?

I apologize for being stubborn for sake of my point. But risk what? In music listening what real risk is there for actually using a dac and amp of a sinad of 80 db? What are these circumstances (in music)? I know the provable transparency is over 110 db. But what are we actually so worried about in regards to SINAD with lower values.

It would be helpful if people posted samples of music files sampled from DACs with 80db vs dacs with 110 db. Even include the amps in there too amps with 80 db and 110 db to see what effect the chain really has on the sound. That way we could see for ourselves what we think of the difference in sound or the risk of it sounding different. In other words, let's see the point of all the practical result of increasing performance.

 

[confucius_zero]

what real risk is there for actually using a dac and amp of a sinad of 80 db

It's harmless of course. A coors light beer has its place as much as the tastiest of IPAs from the craft brewery. I'm sure my bose soundlink mini wouldn't sound better than my high SINAD setup at home but I can bring it places and it sure improves ambience when I'm not paying attention to the music.

However, it's the risk of disappointment in the pursuit of great tasting high fidelity, especially when you've tasted stuff with higher SINADs and reconfirm it on a daily basis with other devices of lower SINAD... The quality of life is simply increased through improved listening experience.

 

[Wombat]

I general buy on 'fitness for purpose' or risk entailed re failure. Second-hand on known reliable gear is OK.

There is a price at which snobbery comes in and it is not so high.

 

[JJB70]

There are certain brands that hold value very well, the problem is that the cost of most of these brands (such as Macintosh) means that if you have the money to gain entry then you probably don't need to be particularly worried about resale value. There are also components that gain a sort of cult status and which retain value well. However, for the most part hifi is like automotive, in most cases you just have to accept that whatever you buy is going to depreciate in monetary value. Hence why buying used can get you some very nice gear without spending that much.

On SINAD, if people value chasing ultimate SINAD that's a fair personal choice but if you just want to enjoy music then in most cases you can keep hifi gear until it breaks or no longer offers format compatibility. The audio DAC is a mature technology, ditto the other parts of the chain. System sound quality is so dominated by speakers and their set up that provided the amplifier is appropriately specified for the load then the bits upstream of the speakers are unlikely to make much difference. Clearly manufacturers need to keep selling stuff (that's not a criticism) and incremental improvements in measured performance or refreshing the style of their equipment, adding features etc helps to maintain sales but from a buyer perspective you don't need to go down the rabbit hole of obsessing over numbers.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well if the argument is why bother worrying about the performance of audio equipment if it scrapes the minimum we are likely to notice then why be a person that comes on audio related forums of any kind?

Then there's the idea you can tell everything about a product simply by its SINAD rating ... Oh dear lol


Seems like some here are arguing themselves out of a hobby. Thats perfectly fine of course, it's a bit of a quirky pursuit at the best of times. Probably better for one's life balance to leave it in the rear view.

 

[Tks]

Yeah don't get me wrong - I try to do the same!

I care about those performance numbers and like to support good engineering; that's why I'm here a million times a day, and I'm a Patreon supporter of ASR.

I just don't chase those ultra ultra ultra upper tier numbers (120+ SINAD) because it's a bit out of my price range. But I've got a nice Topping DX3 here that I'm more or less in love with thanks to Amir and ASR.

And if I ever upgrade my amps I'll hopefully have the cash by then for a Benchmark or NC400.

Oh absolutely same here. Multi thousand dollar spending is above my comfort zone on a single device. I don't mind a kilobuck per each device like an amp and a DAC. But multi thousand per piece? Ehhh, maybe in the future.

Luckily for me, I haven't gone down the speaker rabit hole. Performance on headphone chain has reached heights I can die happy with. With speaker amps though? Or heaven forbid AVRs?! I feel like upgrade addiction would be coming in hard.

Now I mostly focus on the music itself. But enjoy the content and discussion with folks here.

 

[JJB70]

Well if the argument is why bother worrying about the performance of audio equipment if it scrapes the minimum we are likely to notice then why be a person that comes on audio related forums of any kind?

Seems like some here are arguing themselves out of a hobby.

I think it depends on what the hobby is. Is it about equipment or is it about listening to music? I have an interest in the equipment and like good industrial design and build quality. Hence I would like an Accuphase or Benchmark set up, but I would not be buying it for SQ. If it is just about SQ and enjoying music then you really don't need to be spend much and obsessing over things like SINAD is a bit pointless.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think it depends on what the hobby is. Is it about equipment or is it about listening to music? I have an interest in the equipment and like good industrial design and build quality. Hence I would like an Accuphase or Benchmark set up, but I would not be buying it for SQ. If it is just about SQ and enjoying music then you really don't need to be spend much and obsessing over things like SINAD is a bit pointless.

Well my hobby these days is observing you lot and how you all get along or not as the case maybe ha ha ..

I think forums have become entertainment in of themselves. Part of the technology addiction, phone and tablet addiction most seem to have and be fairly unaware of.

 

[Wombat]

Most of forum content is a chat-fest for audio tragics. Occasionally one can learn something amongst the noise.

 

[VintageFlanker]

casual AB gathering listening on 3 different setups over the span of a few weeks on the same songs over and over and over just to be sure. Nothing really scientific, just pleasure of finding differences.
We didn't really need any focused listening to find them. It was quite clear as long as you're paying some attention to how low-mids-high + XYZ width, depth, positioning + dynamics + height were rendered by each device.

I appreciate your impressions, but...

Unfortunately, there is nothing "quite clear" once the listening was sighted and not level matched. As well as the price or look of a gear, you're biased once you know the measured performance.

 

[confucius_zero]

you're biased once you know

I invite you to partake in your own listening rather than criticism or reading. It helps confirm audiosciencereview's findings.

 

[confucius_zero]

Is it about equipment or is it about listening to music?

Music can be enjoyed even on a phone speaker. Transparent equipment however (which seems to be the goal of this forum) improves musical listening and enjoyment through high fidelity.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I invite you to partake in your own listening rather than criticism or reading. It helps confirm audiosciencereview's findings.

Excuse me...? How I criticised exactly?

Almost everybody here made this kind of AB comparaison (with or without friends) a ton of times. Look at my first posts on ASR. I was talking about a sighted AB comparaison between my ADI-2 DAC and my Qutest when I could hear differences. People pointed that it was not level matched. Later, wasn't able to tell the difference once the ADI-2 was set on 2V, not to mention if the test was blind.

 

[Island_Kenny]

Oh absolutely same here. Multi thousand dollar spending is above my comfort zone on a single device. I don't mind a kilobuck per each device like an amp and a DAC. But multi thousand per piece? Ehhh, maybe in the future.

Luckily for me, I haven't gone down the speaker rabit hole. Performance on headphone chain has reached heights I can die happy with. With speaker amps though? Or heaven forbid AVRs?! I feel like upgrade addiction would be coming in hard.

Now I mostly focus on the music itself. But enjoy the content and discussion with folks here.

Speakers need real estate to match, there really is no end game

I would rather spend my money on going to concerts than kilobuck audio equipments.

 

[Sal1950]

casual AB gathering listening on 3 different setups over the span of a few weeks on the same songs over and over and over just to be sure. Nothing really scientific, just pleasure of finding differences.

We didn't really need any focused listening to find them. It was quite clear as long as you're paying some attention to how low-mids-high + XYZ width, depth, positioning + dynamics + height were rendered by each device.

What about your listening impressions?

Sorry but unless done under bias controlled DBT listening conditions your impressions are without value. Your mind and knowledge of the product under test will distort your findings no matter how golden you believe your ears. We would very much appreciate the results of scientific tests run under those conditions.

 

[confucius_zero]

your impressions are without value.

Their value is to confirm scientific differences reported here in real world personal use. Feel free to come up with your own methods.

 

[VintageFlanker]

@confucius_zero,

Please stop taking our answers on the personal side.
When some say "you", I guess it means "anybody". Let's start with the beginning:

I swear that nobody can hear the difference between 113 SINAD and 120 SINAD

An then your answer:

Have you done your purchase and listening? I bought about 6 devices based on measurements of this forum and audibly confirmed the numbers

Well. You have to understand that this is really a strong claim you made. Whatever how far anybody went with listening, it is scientifically impossible that you heard differences past this level of transparency.
However, If there is any little chance you were really able to hear the difference: you have to proof that with proper and controlled blind test and, of course, level-matched. Without that, the fact you know the measured performance of the gear playing is biasing your impression.

 

[Sal1950]

Their value is to confirm scientific differences reported here in real world personal use. Feel free to come up with your own methods.

That's the issue, they confirm nothing. Sighted, uncontrolled listening is worthless as a confirmation.
My method was outlined to you in the rest of my reply, as it was by VintageFlanker above.
I'm surprised you've been here long enough to make near 300 posts and still don't understand the need for controls to support conclusions?

 

[scruffy1]

Intel would give you a run for your money on this claim..

10nm node shrink, STILL WAITING since 2016.

i recall when 45nm was considered the limit of practical cpu architecture, as my wolfdale ruled supreme

 

[Sal1950]

i recall when 45nm was considered the limit of practical cpu architecture, as my wolfdale ruled supreme

All limits are made to be broken
I remember when 200 MPH and 7 seconds was considered the limit of a 1/4 drag car. LOL
One day we will be able to fly at warp speeds too.