Value and depreciation of an expensive high SINAD product in a fast growth and cycle industry

[confucius_zero]

It wasn't so long ago that the SMSL D1 reached 113 SINAD and costs above 1000. Nowadays, you have the SMSL M500, Sabaj D5 and Topping DX7Pro that matched it.

If this keeps up, we'll be reaching an affordable 120 by mid-2021, like we reached an affordable god-tier SINAD in headphone amplifiers like the JDS Atom and the THX products last and this year.

There's been a subject on audio jewelry and I believe the value of an high sinad could be maintained if it carries decorative aspects but stuff like like the SMSL D1 might become a hard sell or resell for their price...

Since "chifi" products have huge depreciation, would it be best to find highest sinad per dollar when the need comes and stick to it?

 

[Ron Texas]

DAC's with a SINAD over 100 are about $100, if that's the only thing that worries you. There are other considerations like balanced connections, multichannel and crossovers.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

The more expensive chinese hi fi items, do have low resale value, but if they have the features and sound you like, who cares.

If you are into the hobby to test, flip, rinse repeat, then probably not the best idea to buy any item at the upper end of the cost index.

Try flipping real estate or classic cars, better return in your investment.

 

[Rja4000]

If you're interested in lower depreciation, buy (cheap) a second hand device that was SOTA 1-2 years ago.
Better even if the brand is renowned for high reliability and good support everywhere.

Performance follows technology.
We had a step forward in performance with ESS9038pro.
I expect another one with AK4499 devices when they'll become common.
New DAC chip generation, with significant performance progress, is not every year though.

 

[confucius_zero]

brand is renowned for high reliability and good support everywhere.

could apply to Benchmark... not so sure with "chifi" brands.

 

[pozz]

Waiting is always a good value proposition, especially for electronics.

 

[Rja4000]

Waiting is always a good value proposition, especially for electronics.

And (second hand) "Pro" market is way more stable in time than "High end" HiFi.

I was thinking Benchmark, RME, Lynx, Mytek,... indeed.

 

[garbulky]

It wasn't so long ago that the SMSL D1 reached 113 SINAD and costs above 1000. Nowadays, you have the SMSL M500, Sabaj D5 and Topping DX7Pro that matched it.

If this keeps up, we'll be reaching an affordable 120 by mid-2021, like we reached an affordable god-tier SINAD in headphone amplifiers like the JDS Atom and the THX products last and this year.

There's been a subject on audio jewelry and I believe the value of an high sinad could be maintained if it carries decorative aspects but stuff like like the SMSL D1 might become a hard sell or resell for their price...

Since "chifi" products have huge depreciation, would it be best to find highest sinad per dollar when the need comes and stick to it?

Why look for the highest SINAD at all? What does a SINAD of 80 vs a SINAD of 120 have to do with sound?

 

[Tks]

Waiting is always a good value proposition, especially for electronics.

Intel would give you a run for your money on this claim..

10nm node shrink, STILL WAITING since 2016.

 

[JohnBooty]

Why look for the highest SINAD at all? What does a SINAD of 80 vs a SINAD of 120 have to do with sound?

Personally I do not chase monster god-tier numbers myself. In fact for speakers as opposed to headphones I don’t think you need too much more than (a cumulative) 70-80dB, if even that, considering the noise floor in one’s room.

But the appeal of chasing higher-than-you-really-need SINAD is that distortion is cumulative in your signal chain. If you want your end result to be 96dB SINAD then everything in your signal chain actually needs to be a fair bit higher than that, depending on how many devices there are in the chain. So to directly answer your question that’s why somebody might be interested in 120dB+ SINAD, even if nobody would really need a cumulative end result quite so spectacular.

 

[Rja4000]

Why look for the highest SINAD at all? What does a SINAD of 80 vs a SINAD of 120 have to do with sound?

It's because DAC is just one component in the chain.
If you chain 2 devices with 120dB SINAD, the chain will have SINAD somewhere between 117dB and 114dB. And so on.
DAC and, to a lower extent, amp, is where there is NO good reason to waste quality. Because highest quality is available and, in relative terms, cheap.

Also, a good figure is a guarantee that you won't "hear" the device (or the chain) EVER.

With, say, 80dB, you don't know, since that will depend of a number of factors, details, circumstances, that you don't control or have knowledge of.
And why to take that risk if you can, for the same money, purchase a device that you can prove, for sure, and under any circumstances, won't impact your sound in any way?

 

[Island_Kenny]

It wasn't so long ago that the SMSL D1 reached 113 SINAD and costs above 1000. Nowadays, you have the SMSL M500, Sabaj D5 and Topping DX7Pro that matched it.

If this keeps up, we'll be reaching an affordable 120 by mid-2021, like we reached an affordable god-tier SINAD in headphone amplifiers like the JDS Atom and the THX products last and this year.

There's been a subject on audio jewelry and I believe the value of an high sinad could be maintained if it carries decorative aspects but stuff like like the SMSL D1 might become a hard sell or resell for their price...

Since "chifi" products have huge depreciation, would it be best to find highest sinad per dollar when the need comes and stick to it?

I swear that nobody can hear the difference between 113 SINAD and 120 SINAD, and I am perfectly happy with the onboard DACs of my computers. Features and build quality is something I would concern.

 

[Tks]

Personally I do not chase monster god-tier numbers myself. In fact for speakers as opposed to headphones I don’t think you need too much more than 70-80dB, if that, considering the noise floor in one’s room.

But the appeal of chasing higher-than-you-really-need SINAD is that distortion is cumulative in your signal chain. If you want your end result to be 96dB SINAD then everything in your signal chain actually needs to be a fair bit higher than that, depending on how many devices there are in the chain. So to directly answer your question that’s why somebody might be interested in 120dB+ SINAD, even if nobody would really need a cumulative end result quite so spectacular.

I chase performance like that because I value the time people put in engineering excellence (and sometimes over engineering) while also making it available at human price points just to demonstrate that they can. There's lots of hate on companies and corporations villianizing them for what they do (granted I'd say most of it is justified in this day and age of mega multinationals).

I simply treat purchases as a feedback mechanism telling folks "yeah I value the sort of approach you take with your product offering, I hope to see more of it" when I place my money into something. So when I for example go ahead and buy a 120 SINAD product, I send a signal that I don't care for silly marketing claims, or games of psychology, or beauty on the surface, or brand provenance of long established companies.

I'd rather chase that instead of furniture accessories, of which seemingly many botique brands seem to value more these days. Though make no mistake, making something look good is engineering in of itself. I'm not simply some utility worshiper or anything remotely close. But I at least want something to work as presented before anything else.

 

[confucius_zero]

What does a SINAD of 80 vs a SINAD of 120 have to do with sound?

Spend enough time buying and listeing to products in this forum and comparing them against weak SINAD stuff.

You'll know when you hear it. I did my listening and the gap was insane!

 

[confucius_zero]

I swear that nobody can hear the difference between 113 SINAD and 120 SINAD

Have you done your purchase and listening? I bought about 6 devices based on measurements of this forum and audibly confirmed the numbers with a few friends of mine. It's quite fun and interesting

 

[Sal1950]

Have you done your purchase and listening? I bought about 6 devices based on measurements of this forum and audibly confirmed the numbers with a few friends of mine. It's quite fun and interesting

Under what conditions were the listening tests run?

 

[Rja4000]

the chain will have SINAD somewhere between 117dB and 114dB

Well, actually, it is possible, in theory, that the sum SINAD is higher than each component's SINAD, but that's very unlikely and, anyway, out of subject.

 

[confucius_zero]

Under what conditions were the listening tests run?

casual AB gathering listening on 3 different setups over the span of a few weeks on the same songs over and over and over just to be sure. Nothing really scientific, just pleasure of finding differences.

We didn't really need any focused listening to find them. It was quite clear as long as you're paying some attention to how low-mids-high + XYZ width, depth, positioning + dynamics + height were rendered by each device.

What about your listening impressions?

 

[JohnBooty]

I chase performance like that because I value the time people put in engineering excellence (and sometimes over engineering) while also making it available at human price points just to demonstrate that they can.

Yeah don't get me wrong - I try to do the same!

I care about those performance numbers and like to support good engineering; that's why I'm here a million times a day, and I'm a Patreon supporter of ASR.

I just don't chase those ultra ultra ultra upper tier numbers (120+ SINAD) because it's a bit out of my price range. But I've got a nice Topping DX3 here that I'm more or less in love with thanks to Amir and ASR.

And if I ever upgrade my amps I'll hopefully have the cash by then for a Benchmark or NC400.

 

[confucius_zero]

because it's a bit out of my price range.

That's my point. If "chifi" brands like SMSL and Topping keep this up, we might be reaching those magical numbers quite soon... but in the meantime, I can't help but find those "work in progress" products to lose value as soon as their more affordable upgrade arises...