This is either all channel mono, or all Left going to front and rear left, all Right going to front and rear right.
It's a party mode.
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Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?
- Thread starter dlaloum
- Start date
It's a party mode.
Unless you make big volume setting changes during a listening session, I don't think this matters as much as feared, and the value of correction for equal loudness far outweighs a possible wrongness from an adjustment to your average listening level.
They don't do it with movies because people don't generally incessantly compare movies with and without the center channel and they didn't used to mix a lot of music in the center either so you just wouldn't notice. The entire point of the center channel is to anchor dialog to the center, which doesn't work with center spread or center width.
There's nothing stopping you from playing a movie in "music" mode or a song in "movie" mode.
You have to ask yourself what difference is there is mixing back the center into the left/right mains (more comb filtering for one thing)? Pro Logic 1 tended to not handle complex signals well, but that along with full range stereo surrounds is why PLII was so much better.
I was comparing Peter Gabriel's i/o Dark Side Mix, Bright Side Mix and Inside (Atmos) Mix for the song Paniopticon and I tried Logic7, Music Logic, DSU, Neural X and even some expand modes on my front wide extraction AVRs which basically mixes the mains into the front wides (kind of the opposite direction of your center spread) and the song upmixes well with everything, but Logic7 won hands down for the 2-channel mixes (The Dark Side mix is superior to the bright side mix and even the Atmos mix for bass, although the Atmos mix had a cool guitar part at the end the other two mixes didn't have and obviously better separation in surround).
I did try Center Spread on/off with DSU. I couldn't hear any difference either way here.
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It doesn't only boost the surrounds, it also boosts the height speakers and by a different amount to the surrounds to make things even worse!
There's a hack around it if you are using home assistant, you can dynamically adjust surround and height speaker volumes depending on the main volume with something like this:
alias: Denon Rear Volume mode: restart icon: mdi:volume-source sequence: - repeat: for_each: - SL - SR - SBL - SBR - TRL - TRR sequence: - service: denonavr.get_command data: command: /goform/formiPhoneAppDirect.xml?CV{{ repeat.item }}%20{{ adjvol }} target: entity_id: media_player.avr_6700
I think it was possible to do this even with Apple Homekit until IOS16.
- Thread Starter
- #407
Sadly PLII is no longer available on most recent AVR's.... apparently Dolby split out its licencing... so the manufacturer has to licence PLII seperately if they want it - part of the PLII fee goes to the estate/family of Jim Fosgate... and Dolby clearly wanted to minimise those costs.
The 7.1 inputs are why I've been thinking of getting a Marantz SR8015 while they're still available on sale. You can easily plug in a PLII AVR/AVP or Logic7, etc with that feature (easy enough to extract or split an media player output to feed it).
I've got Pro Logic 1 and Logic7 with the Lexicon MC-1 plugged in, but I'd need a MC-8 V2 or MC-12 V5 to get PLIIx as well and keep the more programmable form of Logic7 around.
The new Marantz Cinema line eliminated the 7.1 inputs so that's the end of the line short of using speaker switches, although I suppose one could always reverse it the other way and use say a PLII AVR that has 7.1 inputs and plug the Atmos AVR into the base 7.1 inputs and plug the extra speakers into the Atmos AVR as usual... Kind of a reverse 7.1 setup. But even the MC-12 only had 5.1 inputs, not 7.1. My Yamaha PLIIx/Neural Surround AVRs have 7.1, however (I've got a 3rd one I could plug into the Marantz and the Lexicon into its 7.1 inputs for a daisy chain setup, but I'd have to ditch my laserdisc player to do that).
I think the current Trinnov Altitude line still has 7.1 inputs (seeing as the hardware has largely remained the same), but that's pretty much out of the price range I'm willing to pay, particularly when locked Atmos soundtracks still won't use the extra speakers on it.
I've got Pro Logic 1 and Logic7 with the Lexicon MC-1 plugged in, but I'd need a MC-8 V2 or MC-12 V5 to get PLIIx as well and keep the more programmable form of Logic7 around.
The new Marantz Cinema line eliminated the 7.1 inputs so that's the end of the line short of using speaker switches, although I suppose one could always reverse it the other way and use say a PLII AVR that has 7.1 inputs and plug the Atmos AVR into the base 7.1 inputs and plug the extra speakers into the Atmos AVR as usual... Kind of a reverse 7.1 setup. But even the MC-12 only had 5.1 inputs, not 7.1. My Yamaha PLIIx/Neural Surround AVRs have 7.1, however (I've got a 3rd one I could plug into the Marantz and the Lexicon into its 7.1 inputs for a daisy chain setup, but I'd have to ditch my laserdisc player to do that).
I think the current Trinnov Altitude line still has 7.1 inputs (seeing as the hardware has largely remained the same), but that's pretty much out of the price range I'm willing to pay, particularly when locked Atmos soundtracks still won't use the extra speakers on it.
I agree, I wish Dolby had retained DPLIIx and improved on it. Is it still sold or improved by by Jim Fosgate?
Have you heard the latest implementation of DSU, is it as good as DPLIIx?
That is exactly the reason why I will probably never sell my old processor.
- Thread Starter
- #411
Jim Fosgate died a few years back.
I am not convinced that DSU is as good as DPLII... but on current gear DPLII is a non starter
My experience upmixing 2.0 to 3.1
Auro 2D surround sounds the most like the original 2.0 with a tasteful bass boost.
DSU with center spread sounds subjectively the best, but not the closest to the original 2.0
Auro 2D surround sounds the most like the original 2.0 with a tasteful bass boost.
DSU with center spread sounds subjectively the best, but not the closest to the original 2.0
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I agree, I think DPLIIx is really good. I think Jim Fosgate's family should convert it to an open source licence. That way, talented coders and audio enthusiasts could built it further such that it runs on affordable processor consoles such as Raspberry Pi. It could be further developed to be a sophisticated up-matrix system called John Fosgate Advanced Music Matrix (JAMM).
That way, what he started can continue in his memory and millions of music lovers across the world can continue to enjoy JAMM.
- Thread Starter
- #415
The other great setup for music is Logic7 - but its development shrivelled on the vine... and the components that now support it (of current tech) are all JBL - and at the high end of the market...
It would be nice to see PLII and Logic7/16 released as open source, and becoming available on mainstream AVR's - but looking at the cultures of the respective companies.... that seems a terribly forlorn hope.
Now that would be fantastic. Good concepts should never be discarded, they deserve to be developed further. Let's hope the developers of both those codecs get to read our posts such that it sparks an interest.
I came across this software / plug-ins available to mixing and mastering engineers.
Could fellow members who have a sound engineering background explain this to us - would it be possible to run this on an external Raspberry Pi box or similar and have it run in real time in order to play back 2 channels on 5.1 or 7.1 systems? - I like the fact that settings can be tweaked to taste.
Minnetonka SurCode for Dolby Pro Logic II Legacy | Telos Alliance
SurCode for Dolby® Pro Logic II is a certified Dolby Pro Logic II encoder and decoder that allows fast and easy processing and management of file-based and real time Dolby Pro Logic assets.
www.telosalliance.com
Could fellow members who have a sound engineering background explain this to us - would it be possible to run this on an external Raspberry Pi box or similar and have it run in real time in order to play back 2 channels on 5.1 or 7.1 systems? - I like the fact that settings can be tweaked to taste.
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Took a while but I probably found the reason for my "boxy sound with the center speaker".
In order to accomodate the AVR, I removed the TV furniture's back panel - after Dirac meas.urements
After trying for a short period a 4.0 layout, I remeasured again for 5.1 and more focussed,
before with 13 points, 0°-60°, after with 9 points, -5-10°.
While Dirac was fully able to correct both cases, this does not help when one changes position or furniture later.
The bad center speaker sound likely came from the difference of the two curves.
It also appears that a (too) wide average can lead to a bad compromise.
I've connected 4 PSB speakers as "ground effects" to the surround outputs of the Front Wide extraction AVRs (they sit on the floor next to the mains and side surrounds). Theoretically, they should provide ambient effects down to the floor instead of ear level. That brings my system to 25 speakers (11.1.10.4).
The problem is I'm not hearing much difference. If I use the opposite wall as the outputs (left floor front/side from right main/wide/side processor and vice versa, which makes sense from a Pro Logic "surround" effect from out of phase), then I hear a lot of effects so it seems like there is out of phase content present on the outputs, but somehow it fails to significantly alter the imaging on the same side.
The problem with playing to the opposite side is that it's changing the locations of well known image effects on stereo recordings played with Logic7 (effects show up more noticeable there). The "TV" in The Balled of Bill Hubbard on Roger Waters Amused To Death album ends up on the right side instead of the left, for example. I found that unacceptable so I switched it back.
I basically started to conclude the speakers were a waste of time and money when I decided to try some other processing modes on the Yamaha AVRs. Notably, 7-channel stereo mode and "Enhanced 7-channel" modes send in-phase signals to the lower speakers instead of out of phase (copies in 7-channel stereo for example). Now that does produce some interesting effects!
It's essentially doing what a Trinnov does with the extra "lower" DTS speakers in the front. It copies them, which produces an image in-between (leveraged one way it can give a dialog lift effect). Here it lowers the front image instead, which is already treated with a lift effect.
However, not all is equal. HRTF type effects tend to surface with copies spread vertically. I hear them all the time on my 6 foot tall Carver ribbon speakers. Some sounds image higher/lower than just halfway in-between or whatever height you are sitting at with the Carver Ribbons (not all; some). Auromatic can do this with some movies, producing somewhat overhead effects in Ready Player One despite just copying the lower speakers with separate timing and reverb added.
This was noticed on swimming pool system running a huge vertical set of speakers (sorry; don't recall the link,but it's what lead to those lower DTS speaker options, something that Sony 360 us taking advantage of with objects as well for lower than ear sounds in the front where it's most noticeable).
Anyway, the point is this produces quite a change in the sound. It seems particularly useful with orchestral type material. For example, I was playing John Williams Live in Venice Atmos recording and with the effect off, it sounds like I'm sitting mid-front hall with the orchestra maybe 25-35 feet in front of me. I engage the 7-channel Enhanced mode, which also does more of a front wide mix than discrete and suddenly it sounds like I'm sitting right in the middle of the orchestra! The sounds extend floor to ceiling as well.
Now that's pretty cool as it's like getting an entirely different audience perspective without altering overhead ambience, etc. It was louder, but then I found a Yamaha setting to compensate for the extra speakers ("low" option for 7-channel Enhanced instead of "high") making the effect pretty seamless after the change.
It may well be there is some material where the original out of phase method produces some more noticeable lower ambience and maybe there's a better way to connect it or place to locate the speakers that's more noticeable without drastically changing imaging locations, but at least the Enhanced 7-channel output mode does something interesting for live music.
The problem is I'm not hearing much difference. If I use the opposite wall as the outputs (left floor front/side from right main/wide/side processor and vice versa, which makes sense from a Pro Logic "surround" effect from out of phase), then I hear a lot of effects so it seems like there is out of phase content present on the outputs, but somehow it fails to significantly alter the imaging on the same side.
The problem with playing to the opposite side is that it's changing the locations of well known image effects on stereo recordings played with Logic7 (effects show up more noticeable there). The "TV" in The Balled of Bill Hubbard on Roger Waters Amused To Death album ends up on the right side instead of the left, for example. I found that unacceptable so I switched it back.
I basically started to conclude the speakers were a waste of time and money when I decided to try some other processing modes on the Yamaha AVRs. Notably, 7-channel stereo mode and "Enhanced 7-channel" modes send in-phase signals to the lower speakers instead of out of phase (copies in 7-channel stereo for example). Now that does produce some interesting effects!
It's essentially doing what a Trinnov does with the extra "lower" DTS speakers in the front. It copies them, which produces an image in-between (leveraged one way it can give a dialog lift effect). Here it lowers the front image instead, which is already treated with a lift effect.
However, not all is equal. HRTF type effects tend to surface with copies spread vertically. I hear them all the time on my 6 foot tall Carver ribbon speakers. Some sounds image higher/lower than just halfway in-between or whatever height you are sitting at with the Carver Ribbons (not all; some). Auromatic can do this with some movies, producing somewhat overhead effects in Ready Player One despite just copying the lower speakers with separate timing and reverb added.
This was noticed on swimming pool system running a huge vertical set of speakers (sorry; don't recall the link,but it's what lead to those lower DTS speaker options, something that Sony 360 us taking advantage of with objects as well for lower than ear sounds in the front where it's most noticeable).
Anyway, the point is this produces quite a change in the sound. It seems particularly useful with orchestral type material. For example, I was playing John Williams Live in Venice Atmos recording and with the effect off, it sounds like I'm sitting mid-front hall with the orchestra maybe 25-35 feet in front of me. I engage the 7-channel Enhanced mode, which also does more of a front wide mix than discrete and suddenly it sounds like I'm sitting right in the middle of the orchestra! The sounds extend floor to ceiling as well.
Now that's pretty cool as it's like getting an entirely different audience perspective without altering overhead ambience, etc. It was louder, but then I found a Yamaha setting to compensate for the extra speakers ("low" option for 7-channel Enhanced instead of "high") making the effect pretty seamless after the change.
It may well be there is some material where the original out of phase method produces some more noticeable lower ambience and maybe there's a better way to connect it or place to locate the speakers that's more noticeable without drastically changing imaging locations, but at least the Enhanced 7-channel output mode does something interesting for live music.
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