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Turntables, cartidges, and phono stages

digitalfrost

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So my last post actually got my thinking about this topic again, and if we agree das Löfgren A is the best solution, just for sake of simplicity and because I believe it is, other interesting things come up. With IEC standards for inner and outer grooves, the maximum tracking distortion is 0.62%. With a DIN inner groove radius it raises to 0.69%.

I looked how up big vinyl labels are, and they are either 100mm or 4" which is 101,6mm. So, let's assume we have this one record that goes over the (worst case) DIN standard and is longer than 57.5mm inner radius. Whatever the vinyl label radius, if we add either 100mm or 4" to 57.5mm halved we arrive at ~54mm rounded. Middle value. That surely is some kind of worst case vinyl record because none can go right until the label right.

I come from an IT/infrastructure background, where stuff just has to work like the water supply or the power system. So you just err on the side of caution and build stuff that works even under bad (worst) circumstances. We don't ask how good is it going to work when everything's perfect, but how good will it work still if shit hits the fan. Coming back to vinyl.

If I decrease the inner radius to 54mm, maximum distortion is now 0.78%. So I gain ~ 0.1-0.2% in calculated distortion for an alignment that always works, even when the record is bad/against the standard. What's not to like?

Now if you chose an IEC inner groove of 60.325mm and used the Stevenson alignment, you pretty much arrive at almost the same distortion graph. Difference in maximum distortion is 0.02%, however my 54mm Löfgren A solution is 0.1% better at the usual cutoff of 58mm. So any discussion of alignments is useless without specifying inner curve radius.

The real question is how much tracing distortion is rising across the record (probably dependent on needle type) and if you can even compensate that by working on tracking distortion. I'm so pissed of I'd buy a linear tracker if I'd cared enough about it.

There is clearly more at play here than the curve shows. I have never ever thought that in the region where it has that belly towards the lower 3rd of the record anything would not be alright, but I'm sure most know the bane of a bad sounding last track.

To arrive at the optimal null points, we'd really need to know how tracing and tracking distortion influence each other and in how far one can be compensated by the other.
 

watchnerd

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I have never ever thought that in the region where it has that belly towards the lower 3rd of the record anything would not be alright, but I'm sure most know the bane of a bad sounding last track.

"Bad last track" is why I never listen to classical on LP, because the issue gets even worse with movement-ending finales and crescendos.
 

bigx5murf

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I was getting this inner AND outer groove distortion. Really bad. Then waifu suggested I take that little plastic thingy off the Denon and see if that helped. And do you know what? Things cleared up quite a bit.

View attachment 101335

That's a gorgeous SL-1100, I own two of it's poverty brothers, the SL-1200mk1
 

bigx5murf

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Frank Dernie

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So my last post actually got my thinking about this topic again, and if we agree das Löfgren A is the best solution, just for sake of simplicity and because I believe it is, other interesting things come up. With IEC standards for inner and outer grooves, the maximum tracking distortion is 0.62%. With a DIN inner groove radius it raises to 0.69%.

I looked how up big vinyl labels are, and they are either 100mm or 4" which is 101,6mm. So, let's assume we have this one record that goes over the (worst case) DIN standard and is longer than 57.5mm inner radius. Whatever the vinyl label radius, if we add either 100mm or 4" to 57.5mm halved we arrive at ~54mm rounded. Middle value. That surely is some kind of worst case vinyl record because none can go right until the label right.

I come from an IT/infrastructure background, where stuff just has to work like the water supply or the power system. So you just err on the side of caution and build stuff that works even under bad (worst) circumstances. We don't ask how good is it going to work when everything's perfect, but how good will it work still if shit hits the fan. Coming back to vinyl.

If I decrease the inner radius to 54mm, maximum distortion is now 0.78%. So I gain ~ 0.1-0.2% in calculated distortion for an alignment that always works, even when the record is bad/against the standard. What's not to like?

Now if you chose an IEC inner groove of 60.325mm and used the Stevenson alignment, you pretty much arrive at almost the same distortion graph. Difference in maximum distortion is 0.02%, however my 54mm Löfgren A solution is 0.1% better at the usual cutoff of 58mm. So any discussion of alignments is useless without specifying inner curve radius.

The real question is how much tracing distortion is rising across the record (probably dependent on needle type) and if you can even compensate that by working on tracking distortion. I'm so pissed of I'd buy a linear tracker if I'd cared enough about it.

There is clearly more at play here than the curve shows. I have never ever thought that in the region where it has that belly towards the lower 3rd of the record anything would not be alright, but I'm sure most know the bane of a bad sounding last track.

To arrive at the optimal null points, we'd really need to know how tracing and tracking distortion influence each other and in how far one can be compensated by the other.
There are several shortcomings inherent in analogue record players simply inevitable in order to inexpensively manufacture them and the players.
This is just one of them :) and is actually avoidable by using a tangential tracking arm, though many of them add other shortcomings which are probably worse than added distortion.
The damping is in the "wrong place" for the type of transducer a pickup cartridge is. It is a seismic type and ideally the damping should be between the cartridge body and the groove, not at the top of the cantilever.

Actually all the arm has to do is maintain the correct geometry to transduce the groove accurately, this it fails to do.
 

anmpr1

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That's a gorgeous SL-1100, I own two of it's poverty brothers, the SL-1200mk1
Here's its story. It's been going strong since 1975. I also had an original SL-1200 I bought in 1973 or 74, but left that with the guys in Germany when I was being discharged. The 1100a was dropped shipped to my stateside address.

In 2005, word on the street said that the 1200 Mk2 was being discontinued, and I figured I should get something to back up my 1100 should it go wrong. I bought a 1200 (then Mk5) from the guitar store for $500.00--special order and took a month to arrive. They were getting scarce.

However the 1100a has not missed a beat, and because it looks unique it's in my main system. The Mk5 completes a secondary system in my study. The Mk5 is actually a better machine--quartz PLL and all that, better acoustic isolation, quick start and stop. I bought the KAB silicon gunk damper for it. I guess that helps, but you can't disable it for a direct comparison.

I'm sure the new Technics are 'better', but for my use I'm not chasing it down. At my age, I'm guessing the 1100a will outlive me. After I beam up, come by for the estate garage sale. I'm sure my daughter will sell everything for a few dollars just to get rid of it! I've got some hand built and updated Dyna tube gear you can have for next to nothing, too! LOL
 

anmpr1

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This is one of the reasons why I use a parallel tracker :)
I've mentioned this before. I have one of your Z100. It's not in rotation now, but it works as new. I can hear its lack of tacking error distortion, which is a plus, but the downside is that its other record playing stuff is worse. The deck is noisy (probably due to idler drive rumble and the multiple bearings on the arm, although the arm doesn't seem loose at the pivots). The all mechanical construction for the changer is clunky. Speed is OK, but certainly not in quartz PLL or even servo territory. The idler reduction wheel seems pliable enough, but I can't help but wonder if after almost 50 years it could stand replacing. Unfortunately there are no new production discs available.
 

Helicopter

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I like SL-1200s better than my other 10 or so TTs, a M3D and Mk5 favorites because they are in better shape than the old MkII. I will probably get a G at some point, but it is a low priority for now. I like the DVD-player speed control, the heavy brass platter and the Mg tonearm. The Sl1000r wouldn't work with my style. I want 1 tonearm with an SME connector and 52mm overhang. Sl1500c actually looks decent for a simpler system, but also probably not for me personally. I am an admitted Japanese Technics DD fanboy. I prefer the S-shaped tonearm with SME headshell, and quartz is nice too.
 

dennis h

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The damping is in the "wrong place" for the type of transducer a pickup cartridge is. It is a seismic type and ideally the damping should be between the cartridge body and the groove, not at the top of the cantilever.

Does this mean that besides the Shrure brush and things like it that wet playing qualifies as damping in a better place?
 

Helicopter

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You really need a direct drive turntable if you ever want to install ceiling lightbulbs as well... unless there is some other way to do it of which I am unaware. ;)
 

dennis h

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