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Topping A90 Discrete Review (Headphone Amp & Preamp)

Rate this Headphone Amp/Pre-amp

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 16 3.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 14 3.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 70 17.2%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 306 75.4%

  • Total voters
    406

leonidas

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Thanks Keith. I don’t want to stretch this too much and dive into conspiracy level, but still, if there is nothing left for them to review about in terms of „sound quality“ of an amp what is left? Only aesthetics and how a knob feels etc.

@Grobbelboy in fact, this is the exact video that brought me here! But this is a more extreme example. He even claims the A90D hast not enough power for bass and much other stuff…
 

leonidas

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I've connected A90 Discrete to a D90SE. I spent hours today to figure out a way to fix the issue. Here are the steps that I took that finally fixed the issue for me. I'm not sure what this error message means or why it appeared or why it's not appearing again, but my A90 Discrete started working again after following these steps
  1. Unplug from everything (DAC, power, headphone)
  2. Wait for 5 minutes
  3. Plug the power back in
  4. Turn the amplifier on
  5. I got error -5
  6. I left it on for more than 10 minutes (I forgot about it after spending hours trying to diagnose the problem)
  7. The -5 error disappeared on its own!
Have tried upgrading to the latest firmware, yet? I read somewhere this will fix the -5 issue. Are you using 6,3mm out or balanced?
 

tomelex

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I‘ve ran into multiple reviews of the A90D lately on YouTube where the reviewer critiziced the A90D for being „too perfect“. They say it is only built around measurements.

At the end of those videos they claim you essentially need a certain degree of distortion to even make the music enjoyable and how better amps sound which measure worse. They even claim those „worse“ amps are so much better and they even deliver better soundstage, more details, better bass etc…

Is this all the classic audiophile esoteric nonsense or do they have a point?

They have to have something to validate their review as far as their hearing is concerned, same as stereophile and all the rest, their idea of value add is to describe how in thier system at that moment in time the thing sounds to them. The problem comes when they review gear that is as transparent as the Topping, they are hearing what is on the recording but, still through their system at that moment in time. So, really unless you have their system and biases how can you take anything away from what they reviewed?

It has to be mentioned that measurements into a resistor are not the same as into a reactive load such as a headphone speaker for example. I am not knocking resistor measurements as they allow everybody to measure the same thing across the planet, but they way the device interacts with those reactive loads can make a difference in sound. The damping factor alone can make an audible difference depending on how poorly the speaker is engineered. So, there are variables, and hearing a difference is not some big deal, we can all hear differences.

The question is, how well does the amplifier amplify the signal without adding or subtracting anything, using your own speaker or headphones.
In other words, if the amp has a high damping factor (atleast 370) then you will not hear the interaction between the amp and the speaker connection, then how well does the amp provide the current needed to deal with the reactances in the speaker/phones and thus keeping the signal faithful.

So, yes, they do have a point, different amps certainly can sound different, but an amp such as the topping or benchmark or others, with super high specs to start with, and with good reserves of power, should be able to replicate a larger copy of the signal input to the amp at the speaker connectors with no additions of subtractions through out the audible band, but without measurements for that particular combination we are just going off of human hearing which is not much to go off of and certainly not objective enough.

The disconnect with measurements is when we just use a resistor and not the complex load of the headphone or the speaker, ie the transducers.
The next disconnect is not measurements but that even if the amp manages to produce an exact but amplified copy of its input at the speaker terminals (ie we measure at the speaker terminals) then now we are listening to the individual nuances and shortcomings of the speaker AND or our own biases of what we think things are supposed to sound like, even though the mix and master engineer already decided for us what they think sounds right. How can you win with so many variables in audio?

Can a certain degree of distortion sound better, of course it can. Stereo is a weak replication system of an actual event and that is a fact. It was great for the movies to show sound from the left or right side of the screen, but when you take away the visuals and let folks hearing and brains try to recover information from such a limited system, then often particular distortions or enhancements can make the illusion more fun if not more believable for some folks. Certianly the whole recording process is an exercise in intentional distortions, from mic placement to mixing to make the drums sound like drums etc.

The caveat of course is that the distortion if added by your device paints all incoming signals with the same brush, which may be good and may not, depends. For example, I enjoy SET sound, and I know I am not getting pure replication, but I enjoy the distortions and other effects that SET does for the sound of the music and dynamics. Sometimes, I want clean sound, such as what the A90D does, and I can certainly hear and enjoy the clean sound of this headphone amplifier and have never experienced any fatigue at all so that says a lot to me and my preferences.

I would love to see Amir add another measurement where he uses an actual real world "difficult load" and does a multi tone sweep and looks at the FFT of that to see what happens, this will show how much control the amp ( a voltage feedback amp for example) has over a real world device at really replicating an input signal at reasonable power levels from very low to pretty high as far as the rating of the amp goes.

Personally, one has to decide do they want an electronic device to pass the signal with the least harm or do they want it to be some sort of tone control. Or, as in my case, just choose which way you go depending on your mood at the moment.

Yes, a test some folks can do is listen to a cd test disc for example a 1Khz tone, then listen to the LP test disc 1Khz tone, and I bet for "pleasurable sound" the ever so slightly distorted version from the vinyl will be preferred, thus distortions can embellish and flesh out lots of recordings if you feel the mix and master engineers did not do enough of it for you when laying down the tracks.
 

leonidas

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Thank you for your comprehensive answer, it was a very interesting read for me, helping to understand „both sides“ better.

One thing makes me wonder, though. Let’s say you enjoy the amp output with more distortions better when in the mood. Is it then guaranteed that these distortions match different headphones / speakers (or even all of them) or will they rather help in specialized chains (like many people say the HD800 is best powered by a tube amp.?
 

tomelex

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Thank you for your comprehensive answer, it was a very interesting read for me, helping to understand „both sides“ better.

One thing makes me wonder, though. Let’s say you enjoy the amp output with more distortions better when in the mood. Is it then guaranteed that these distortions match different headphones / speakers (or even all of them) or will they rather help in specialized chains (like many people say the HD800 is best powered by a tube amp.?

Hi, actually each headphone/speaker (transducers) will have its own sound already. And if you compare say two of them on your same amplifier, it is the combination of the two that creates the sound. If you power amp were perfect, and you generated the distortions say in a preamp or DAC, you still have the same distortions put into each headphone/speaker. But, if your power amp is the one doing the distorting that you like, for example a SET, then now you also have the interactions with the output impedance of the SET amp (damping factor) and output current capabilities of the SET with each speaker, so again, each will sound different and get different distortions.

So, if your amp is perfect, distortions are deliberate by your pre-amp, these will carry over into your two different headphone/speakers and the particular distortions may sound better to you on one of the speakers/headphones but you will know you are only comparing headphones/speakers and not the audio chain.

A clean audio chain will give the exact same distortions to both headphone and speakers (in our example) and now you can decide only on the transducers (headphones/speakers), that is you can choose without any affects/causes from the audio chain electronics.

It is not tube or solid state, it is the distortions, the particular ones your audio chain delivers, which may sound better to you with one output transducer or the other. some transducers may respond better to your audio chain distortions than others, of course.

So, it is not guaranteed that these distortions will match different transducers the same way, when using for example a SET or most tube amps.
 

threni

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Thanks Keith. I don’t want to stretch this too much and dive into conspiracy level, but still, if there is nothing left for them to review about in terms of „sound quality“ of an amp what is left? Only aesthetics and how a knob feels etc.

I can remember, back in the 1980's, when computer magazines reviewed PCs as the market moved towards "IBM Compatibles" from a variety of devices. After a while even they realised it was pointless... a mention of the spec and then a tedious focus on what the keyboard was like. It's a PC. Do you want a PC? Then buy a PC.
 

madani

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Have tried upgrading to the latest firmware, yet? I read somewhere this will fix the -5 issue. Are you using 6,3mm out or balanced?
I have upgraded to the latest firmware (V2.4) and I am using the 6.3mm out (I'm using Sennheiser HD800s). Unfortunately the issue has reappeared again. I have seen the -5 error code multiple times now. Every time I hear a loud popping noise on the right ear cup followed by the -5 error! If I don't do anything and just leave the AMP on, the error disappears on its own just to reappear in about 10 to 20 minutes. I've also noticed random clicking and popping sound in the right ear cup since the first time this happened. I am confident that there is something wrong with my A90D and decided not to plug my headphone in until I hear back from the support.

I will update here once I hear back from Topping.
 

808lab

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Is this all the classic audiophile esoteric nonsense or do they have a point?
Classic audiophile esotheric nosense,exactly.

A90D (that I recently use daily) has it own sound,very clear,with punchy bass,solid mid,clear highs and a very wide soundstage.

Not an extremely warm sound,but also not a flat and aseptic sound,at all.

I produce music and i use headphones intensely with eq-correction softwares that force you to push up the volume so much,because you need many headroom,CLEAN headroom,you need volume but with no distortion.

I start from an ifi zen,then a Topping stack A30 Pro/D30 Pro and now an A90D/D90LE stack.

And instead of what people say here the difference is remarkable,not night and day,but absolutely remarkable,and it's definitely worth doing these upgrades.
 

808lab

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I have upgraded to the latest firmware (V2.4) and I am using the 6.3mm out (I'm using Sennheiser HD800s). Unfortunately the issue has reappeared again. I have seen the -5 error code multiple times now. Every time I hear a loud popping noise on the right ear cup followed by the -5 error! If I don't do anything and just leave the AMP on, the error disappears on its own just to reappear in about 10 to 20 minutes. I've also noticed random clicking and popping sound in the right ear cup since the first time this happened. I am confident that there is something wrong with my A90D and decided not to plug my headphone in until I hear back from the support.

I will update here once I hear back from Topping.
Send your unit back to them,it have for sure something wrong,mine is perfect also on 6.3
 

Chagall

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Thank you for your comprehensive answer, it was a very interesting read for me, helping to understand „both sides“ better.

One thing makes me wonder, though. Let’s say you enjoy the amp output with more distortions better when in the mood. Is it then guaranteed that these distortions match different headphones / speakers (or even all of them) or will they rather help in specialized chains (like many people say the HD800 is best powered by a tube amp.?

Not sure is best powered by tube amp, but sometimes it does work or is to that person's liking with that specific headphones, but can you be certain you will like it?

Maybe you do like it, but then you decide to buy different headphones, now your tube amp is basically useless.

What do tube amps do? They color the sound of any given headphone - change the frequency response. Why not buy the most transparent amp there is and just use EQ? Same thing, but much cheaper and infinitely more versatile.

And one more thing. Old school tube amp manufacturers know they can't compete with modern amps. Youtube reviewers know that they need to spice things up in order to get views. So they invent narratives like "modern amp (topping) are built around measurements". What is amp supposed to be built around....marketing? Soon they will start printing "tuned by ear" on packaging like it's a good thing. It's desperation, don't fall for it.
 

okok

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error came from source higher than 2v output? amirm mentioned something similar in the L70 thread
 

lashto

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I‘ve ran into multiple reviews of the A90D lately on YouTube where the reviewer critiziced the A90D for being „too perfect“. They say it is only built around measurements.

At the end of those videos they claim you essentially need a certain degree of distortion to even make the music enjoyable and how better amps sound which measure worse. They even claim those „worse“ amps are so much better and they even deliver better soundstage, more details, better bass etc…

Is this all the classic audiophile esoteric nonsense or do they have a point?
Probably best to DIY.

You can order two amps from an easy-returns place like amazon and try them. E.g. use this amp and a 'colored' tube one like the darkvoice (it only works well with high impedance HPs like Senn HD650).
According to some previous tests the difference should be audible. But it's quite subtle and there is no guarantee that you will hear it too. And in case you hear a difference, the big question is which one do you like. A question that only you can answer.
 

leonidas

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Not sure is best powered by tube amp, but sometimes it does work or is to that person's liking with that specific headphones, but can you be certain you will like it?

Maybe you do like it, but then you decide to buy different headphones, now your tube amp is basically useless.

What do tube amps do? They color the sound of any given headphone - change the frequency response. Why not buy the most transparent amp there is and just use EQ? Same thing, but much cheaper and infinitely more versatile.

And one more thing. Old school tube amp manufacturers know they can't compete with modern amps. Youtube reviewers know that they need to spice things up in order to get views. So they invent narratives like "modern amp (topping) are built around measurements". What is amp supposed to be built around....marketing? Soon they will start printing "tuned by ear" on packaging like it's a good thing. It's desperation, don't fall for it.

Exactly what I am thinking. Still, Im interested what others think and how they argue vs. the scientific approach.


Probably best to DIY.

You can order two amps from an easy-returns place like amazon and try them. E.g. use this amp and a 'colored' tube one like the darkvoice (it only works well with high impedance HPs like Senn HD650).
According to some previous tests the difference should be audible. But it's quite subtle and there is no guarantee that you will hear it too. And in case you hear a difference, the big question is which one do you like. A question that only you can answer.

I'm personally not even interested in "non-clean" amps. If I want altered sound, I want to do this by EQ. I would never buy a DAC or AMP with "fixed EQ" nonono :)

Totally happy with my A90D.
 

lashto

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I'm personally not even interested in "non-clean" amps. If I want altered sound, I want to do this by EQ. I would never buy a DAC or AMP with "fixed EQ" nonono :)

Totally happy with my A90D.
Don't know your interests, I just answered your question.
And btw, tubes add harmonic distortion and that is what those 'reviewers' are talking about. No idea if they are right or wrong but HD and EQ are very different things and you cannot replicate HD with EQ. If you want to know how the HD sounds try something like PKHarmonic
 

leonidas

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Don't know your interests, I just answered your question.
And btw, tubes add harmonic distortion and that is what those 'reviewers' are talking about. No idea if they are right or wrong but HD and EQ are very different things and you cannot replicate HD with EQ. If you want to know how the HD sounds try something like PKHarmonic
Of course, that's true. Still, I am not so much interested in all these distortions although I grew up with tape cassettes and vinyl records.

I got your suggestion you can compare two amps. But I am very sure that I even wouldn't be able to find any difference with the exception if one of the two is really off. I once had the A&K SE200 DAP that has 2 outputs, one goes through an AKM DAC, the other one through an ESS DAC. People were commenting on how better the one over the other sounded with different types of music etc.

All I could hear was a volume difference between the two. Volume matched they sounded exactly the same to me :)
 

dimedrol

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I have recently purchased both D90SE and A90 Discrete and I've never owned a Chinese DAC or amp before. And here's what I have to say. These companies: SMSL and Topping and probably others as well are popping out new products at a mind blowing rate and those devices measure well and get great reviews but the ones I purchased while being a few steps ahead of my older devices in some of the aspects are a couple of steps behind too. And I would much rather like to see the Chinese companies work on building customer trust by continuously improving weak areas versus trying to optimize already industry-leading measurements.

Here are a few examples:

- The remote controls on my both units are the worst in terms of the reception angle I've had in years.
- The screen on D90SE is worse than the one on my 10 year old Audiolab MDAC. How expensive might those two extra inches of the monochrome screen be I wonder?
- If I restart D90SE with the speakers connected I get a really nasty but luckily short crackling through the speakers, that doesn't sound healthy to me. Don't have anything like that with much older and cheaper MDAC and DacMagic Plus
- I can plug and unplug headphones in both MDAC and DacMagic Plus without any pops or crackles or any kind of functional interruptions - not so much with A90 Discrete.
- When I turned on the HPA mode on my A90 Discrete - after 10 seconds the right ear on my HD800 went dead silent. I had to turn off the device and re-connect the headphones and then it worked fine. Hopefully this was the last time I've had this problem (knock on wood). Never in 10 years my MDAC or DacMagic plus have exhibited such behavior.
- Every time I start or stop a track on D90se there's a slight short crackling through the speakers. Don't have that on my other older DACs.

You may think this all is unimportant and that the advanced technical designs trump it all, but I think when responsible manufacturers build new devices they should not ignore the achievements of the last decades and just chase better measurements. Everything is important.
 

lashto

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What do tube amps do? They color the sound of any given headphone - change the frequency response. Why not buy the most transparent amp there is and just use EQ? Same thing, but much cheaper and infinitely more versatile.
Tube amps do not "change the frequency response", bad amps do that. FR changes happen in case of impedance mismatch between the amp & transducers but that's something you have to check with any amp. Admittedly, it is easier with (most) SS amps because their output impedance is below 1-Ohm (and in that case you can just forget about the matching step.)

Also, assuming that the tube amp is used right, its "tube color" is not a matter of FR but timbre/HD. Nothing to do with EQ (also see above answer)

Yes, tube amps are finicky devices and may be a pretty expensive headache. They are surely not for everyone and they have enough real issues, no need to 'invent' extras ...
 
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Chagall

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Tube amps do not "change the frequency response", bad amps do that. FR changes happen in case of impedance mismatch between the amp & transducers but that's something you have to check with any amp. Admittedly, it is easier with (most) SS amps because their output impedance is below 1-Ohm (and in that case you can just forget about the matching step.)

Also, assuming that the tube amp is used right, its "tube color" is not a matter of FR but timbre/HD. Nothing to do with EQ (also see above answer)

Yes, tube amps are finicky devices and may be a pretty expensive headache. They are surely not for everyone and they have enough real issues, no need to 'invent' extras ...

I stand corrected, thanks.
But it's fair to say that tube amps isn't definitly going to make your headphone sound better then solid-state - it is just different sounding.
 

lashto

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Of course, that's true. Still, I am not so much interested in all these distortions although I grew up with tape cassettes and vinyl records.

I got your suggestion you can compare two amps. But I am very sure that I even wouldn't be able to find any difference with the exception if one of the two is really off. I once had the A&K SE200 DAP that has 2 outputs, one goes through an AKM DAC, the other one through an ESS DAC. People were commenting on how better the one over the other sounded with different types of music etc.

All I could hear was a volume difference between the two. Volume matched they sounded exactly the same to me :)
Vinyl HD and tubeamp HD are quite similar. If you like one, chances are good that you'll like the other too.

Your A&K example is comparing two DACs and AFAIK, noone ever proved that such diffs were audible. Pretty good chances that those "people" were full of...
OTOH, the diffs between tube and SS amps could be audible (blind tested & all). Not exactly night&day, though.

Anyway, have fun with your A90D..
 

lashto

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I stand corrected, thanks.
But it's fair to say that tube amps isn't definitly going to make your headphone sound better then solid-state - it is just different sounding.
that is fair, "better" is (still) in the eye of the beholder.

Measurements will tell you if a component is better built/engineered but in terms of correlating those measurements to user preferences there are still many gaps. We're doing pretty well at correlating things like FR/directivity but we have almost nothing for SINAD/HD. You just can't (generally) say "SinadX sounds better than SinadY" and you cannot say which one will be preferred by the listener.

Some people just like those pesky tubes and will say they are "better". Others will say the exact opposite. This is something that you'll have to decide with your own ears. Just give em a chance and you might be surprised how good that "ugly" distortion can sound.
 
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