There is something very, very wrong with today’s music

[theREALdotnet]

If you think Walton and Elgar represent 'modern' your tastes are quite conservative.

I don’t think musical taste operates on a timescale, at least for me it doesn’t. Elgar, for example, is bracketed by Bach, Mozart and Beethoven on one side, and by Prokofiev and Shostakovich on the the other, yet I vastly prefer any of those to Elgar. I also like jazz, from bebop to Guiffre to modern, and I like Björk. Go figure.

 

[DonR]

I don’t think musical taste operates on a timescale, at least for me it doesn’t. Elgar, for example, is bracketed by Bach, Mozart and Beethoven on one side, and by Prokofiev and Shostakovich on the the other, yet I vastly prefer any of those to Elgar. I also like jazz, from bebop to Guiffre to modern, and I like Björk. Go figure.

What about composers of film scores like John Williams or Hans Zimmer?

 

[Axo1989]

Another reason why modern music sucks: melody is dead.

Intelligent/interesting video, but I don't agree with the core argument: @IPunchCholla has covered much of what I would say already.

As the narrator says, melody survives in soundtracks of movies for children and period pieces, where it fits nicely. Personally, I think melody is the least interesting/enjoyable of the four major elements of music he describes. There's nothing wrong with expressive use of melody, of course, if we don't overdo it, rely on it, or put it everywhere in everything. But now that we're past the rather long period of western musical history where melody was dominant, music is much better, more diverse and more sophisticated for it. And we have modern/avant-garde composers like Stockhausen and Reich to thank (or blame) for deprecation of melody and influences we can trace through King Crimson, Eno, the Beatles, the Residents, the Who, the Dead, Kraftwerk, Underworld, GY!BE, the Orb, DJ Spooky, Aphex, Björk et al to many current artists and genres.

I listened to the follow-up video What Makes Good Melody and it was also intelligent, but posited on the same tastes and biases. The things he loves—lines of expressive melody pulling you through an emotional/empathetic journey—I often find melodramatic and schmaltzy. He seems entirely committed to music as narrative. Which is just one avenue for enjoying music.

 

[Keith_W]

Intelligent/interesting video, but I don't agree with the core argument: @IPunchCholla has covered much of what I would say already.

As the narrator says, melody survives in soundtracks of movies for children and period pieces, where it fits nicely. Personally, I think melody is the least interesting/enjoyable of the four major elements of music he describes. There's nothing wrong with expressive use of melody, of course, if we don't overdo it, rely on it, or put it everywhere in everything. But now that we're past the rather long period of western musical history where melody was dominant, music is much better, more diverse and more sophisticated for it. And we have modern/avant-garde composers like Stockhausen and Reich to thank (or blame) for deprecation of melody and influences we can trace through King Crimson, Eno, the Residents, the Who, the Dead, Kraftwerk, Underworld, GY!BE, the Orb, DJ Spooky, Aphex, Björk et al to many current artists and genres.

I listened to the follow-up video What Makes Good Melody and it was also intelligent, but posited on the same tastes and biases. The things he loves—lines of expressive melody pulling you through an emotional/empathetic journey—I often find melodramatic and schmaltzy. He seems entirely committed to music as narrative. Which is just one avenue for enjoying music.

Interesting perspective. I would say that I agree with him. I find the vast majority of modern music to be too commercial and I honestly don't understand how anybody could listen to Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift or Beyonce and actually enjoy that type of music. For me it is like listening to an advertising jingle over and over. Voices are often autocorrected and have an unnatural digital sheen with artificial reverb. I think people are so used to that kind of over-processed singing that they think it is normal, but for me it sounds like they ran it through a karaoke machine, which they probably did (albeit an expensive karaoke machine with sound engineers at the controls). It is as repulsive and as cheap as a pack of instant noodles compares to a bowl of ramen.

I am familiar with only a few of those musicians you named, and whilst I can appreciate Kraftwerk and Aphex Twin I really can't stand Stockhausen or Reich.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Interesting perspective. I would say that I agree with him. I find the vast majority of modern music to be too commercial and I honestly don't understand how anybody could listen to Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift or Beyonce and actually enjoy that type of music. For me it is like listening to an advertising jingle over and over. Voices are often autocorrected and have an unnatural digital sheen with artificial reverb. I think people are so used to that kind of over-processed singing that they think it is normal, but for me it sounds like they ran it through a karaoke machine, which they probably did (albeit an expensive karaoke machine with sound engineers at the controls). It is as repulsive and as cheap as a pack of instant noodles compares to a bowl of ramen.

I am familiar with only a few of those musicians you named, and whilst I can appreciate Kraftwerk and Aphex Twin I really can't stand Stockhausen or Reich.

I must say that I love Taylor Swifts Folklore album. I wouldn't call it very commercial either. I also listen to Lover and the latest Midnights. I think she's quite underrated and that she's very versatile in different styles but always consistent in quality. If you only know her from the pop hits, give the Folklore album a chance.

 

[Axo1989]

I must say that I love Taylor Swifts Folklore album. I wouldn't call it very commercial either. I also listen to Lover and the latest Midnights. I think she's quite underrated and that she's very versatile in different styles but always consistent in quality. If you only know her from the pop hits, give the Folklore album a chance.

Yeah I agree, I think her last three albums of new material—evermore, folklore and Midnights—(I think that's the intended capitalisation) are all worth a listen. For contractual reasons she's also re-released new editions of her earlier material, but I was never a fan of pop Taylor, somewhat different stuff I reckon.

Actually I missed Lover, haven't listened yet but likely should be in there too.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Yeah I agree, I think her last three albums of new material—evermore, folklore and Midnights—(I think that's the intended capitalisation) are all worth a listen. For contractual reasons she's also re-released new editions of her earlier material, but I was never a fan of pop Taylor, somewhat different stuff I reckon.

Actually I missed Lover, haven't listened yet but likely should be in there too.

Oh, I forgot evermore. Lover is a bit too pop for me. Evermore is imo far better.

 

[MattHooper]

Intelligent/interesting video, but I don't agree with the core argument: @IPunchCholla has covered much of what I would say already.

As the narrator says, melody survives in soundtracks of movies for children and period pieces, where it fits nicely. Personally, I think melody is the least interesting/enjoyable of the four major elements of music he describes. There's nothing wrong with expressive use of melody, of course, if we don't overdo it, rely on it, or put it everywhere in everything. But now that we're past the rather long period of western musical history where melody was dominant, music is much better, more diverse and more sophisticated for it. And we have modern/avant-garde composers like Stockhausen and Reich to thank (or blame) for deprecation of melody and influences we can trace through King Crimson, Eno, the Beatles, the Residents, the Who, the Dead, Kraftwerk, Underworld, GY!BE, the Orb, DJ Spooky, Aphex, Björk et al to many current artists and genres.

I listened to the follow-up video What Makes Good Melody and it was also intelligent, but posited on the same tastes and biases. The things he loves—lines of expressive melody pulling you through an emotional/empathetic journey—I often find melodramatic and schmaltzy. He seems entirely committed to music as narrative. Which is just one avenue for enjoying music.

Interesting take. I think any attempt at being objective about music or art is perilous. Just look to the past at all the eye-rolling, dismissive or hostile "hot takes" one can dredge up on what people now consider to be classics.

So I'm certainly not going to comment about melody in some universal way, but rather from my own experience:

I listen to a wide range of music, including some that you give as examples where melody doesn't play the major role. As a soundtrack fan I can listen to the most ridiculously dissonant stuff that is all about creating a mood or sense of drama, through tone/timbre/rythm etc. I also enjoy all sorts of blips 'n bleep electronica, EDM etc. So I can definitely enjoy music which is not melody driven.

That said.

I have to out myself as among the most ubiquitous, banal creatures on earth: a newly minted ABBA fan. Being a part time musician, like most musicians I'd given them their due as masters of their craft. But I fell big time down the rabbit hole last year, gawd help me.

While they were big on studio craft and "getting just the right sound" they are clearly mainly driven by melody first. And not just one; they'd work until they had songs layered in melodies and hooks. I find super melodic music like that so intoxicating that sometimes other music can almost feel like a bit lacking. (Beyonce, for one of many examples, sounds utterly monotonous to me, in comparison). I absolutely get a kick and a thrill out of so many different types of music, but I'm not sure anything quite can make my heart soar like music with a strong melody that I like.

Then again, I was crazy about Rush growing up, still enjoy them, so maybe it's just age/phase...but I don't think so. It's not for nothing that so many pop musicians seek that hook. I remember in the early 80's when all our musician friends had moved on from Prog to Jazz Fusion, so everyone was studying music, learning music theory, being super creative. One fusion group I knew disparaged people like Madonna "anyone can write that simple crap!" Yet when this group was floundering a bit they tried to put their mutual musical powers together to craft some more commercial-type songs. And they were AWFUL! Like someone without a sense of humor trying to craft a joke. They quickly learned that hooky melody and getting just the right pop vibe is far harder than they figured.

 

[Axo1989]

Interesting take. I think any attempt at being objective about music or art is perilous. Just look to the past at all the eye-rolling, dismissive or hostile "hot takes" one can dredge up on what people now consider to be classics.

So I'm certainly not going to comment about melody in some universal way, but rather from my own experience:

I listen to a wide range of music, including some that you give as examples where melody doesn't play the major role. As a soundtrack fan I can listen to the most ridiculously dissonant stuff that is all about creating a mood or sense of drama, through tone/timbre/rythm etc. I also enjoy all sorts of blips 'n bleep electronica, EDM etc. So I can definitely enjoy music which is not melody driven.

That said.

I have to out myself as among the most ubiquitous, banal creatures on earth: a newly minted ABBA fan. Being a part time musician, like most musicians I'd given them their due as masters of their craft. But I fell big time down the rabbit hole last year, gawd help me.

While they were big on studio craft and "getting just the right sound" they are clearly mainly driven by melody first. And not just one; they'd work until they had songs layered in melodies and hooks. I find super melodic music like that so intoxicating that sometimes other music can almost feel like a bit lacking. (Beyonce, for one of many examples, sounds utterly monotonous to me, in comparison). I absolutely get a kick and a thrill out of so many different types of music, but I'm not sure anything quite can make my heart soar like music with a strong melody that I like.

Then again, I was crazy about Rush growing up, still enjoy them, so maybe it's just age/phase...but I don't think so. It's not for nothing that so many pop musicians seek that hook. I remember in the early 80's when all our musician friends had moved on from Prog to Jazz Fusion, so everyone was studying music, learning music theory, being super creative. One fusion group I knew disparaged people like Madonna "anyone can write that simple crap!" Yet when this group was floundering a bit they tried to put their mutual musical powers together to craft some more commercial-type songs. And they were AWFUL! Like someone without a sense of humor trying to craft a joke. They quickly learned that hooky melody and getting just the right pop vibe is far harder than they figured.

I hope I was careful enough to not dismiss melody entirely. And subjective taste is certainly in play and unavoidable. I often get irritated when a song sticks in my mind, even one I like, hooks tend to hurt. I'd go for hyper-pop rather than the regular kind. It's better when layers of weird sonics temper/chop/change the melodic elements—they don't call it glitchcore for nothing.

ABBA and Rush specifically are before my time—I'm aware of the iconic status—upbeat often depresses me though so I usually go for darker tones. Like you I don't do the auto-tune divas or mainstream rappers much and won't necessarily recognise Beyoncé/Duo Lipa or Lizzo/Megan Thee Stallion et al when I hear them—they are kind of bland/fungible to me—but I wouldn't underestimate the skills that go into making memorable melodies for the masses. Eccentrics that cross over to some serious mainstream success are rare because it's hard I reckon. There was MIA somewhat, and Lana totally but they had to coin a new sub-genre—cinematic sadcore—when that happened.

 

[Axo1989]

Oh, I forgot evermore. Lover is a bit too pop for me. Evermore is imo far better.

Yeah I figured it out now, Lover was the last pop album of hers before folklore (and evermore came shortly after). Now that I've had a listen, not as good for me either.

 

[Vacceo]

Then again, I was crazy about Rush growing up, still enjoy them, so maybe it's just age/phase...but I don't think so. It's not for nothing that so many pop musicians seek that hook. I remember in the early 80's when all our musician friends had moved on from Prog to Jazz Fusion, so everyone was studying music, learning music theory, being super creative. One fusion group I knew disparaged people like Madonna "anyone can write that simple crap!" Yet when this group was floundering a bit they tried to put their mutual musical powers together to craft some more commercial-type songs. And they were AWFUL! Like someone without a sense of humor trying to craft a joke. They quickly learned that hooky melody and getting just the right pop vibe is far harder than they figured.

If crafting palatable music for everyone consistently was easy, there wouldn´t be so many one hit wonders over the decades.

Speaking of Rush, I´m super grateful they exist even if I don´t like them much: without them, there would be no Dan Swanö, very particularly his Moontower record.

 

[sergeauckland]

If you think Walton and Elgar represent 'modern' your tastes are quite conservative.

Anything after 1850 is 'modern' as far as I'm concerned. When I was younger, teens and early 20s, I used to think there was not a lot of good music composed after 1750, (although I made an exception for Mozart) but I've widened my tastes since then.

S.

 

[Derek Ashley]

Sounds like “old man shouts at clouds” to me.

I’d say 90%+ of the music I listen to is created by very talented artists using electronics/software, my preferred genres are electronic/techno etc.
I’m not exactly young either at the age of 49 and whilst I listened and loved standards such as Led Zeppeliin and rock music back in the late 80’s I find the guitar/drums/singer format pretty boring and tired now and never listen to it at all. The turning point for me was a rave in a forest and a dose of mdma back in 1991, best thing that could have happened to me musically , saying that the explosion of the “Brit pop scene in the 90’s” was pretty good.

There’s more good music now than has ever been, I love it.

A dose of MDMA and some rave music was the best thing that happened to you musically? For me it was a bottle of MD 20/20 and a Venga boys album.

 

[Axo1989]

Anything after 1850 is 'modern' as far as I'm concerned. When I was younger, teens and early 20s, I used to think there was not a lot of good music composed after 1750, (although I made an exception for Mozart) but I've widened my tastes since then.

My tastes have broadened as well, I sometimes listen to music made before 1990. Historical interest.

 

[Head_Unit]

A desire to be famous rather than pay their dues learning their craft. (Blame all the TV talent shows for that.) Record labels that don’t nurture and develop artists

Mmmm I'm pretty sure nearly everyone going into this field wants to be famous and make money, that's nothing new in music. Paying dues...there are still bands playing smaller places and still artists building up. Newly arrived to The Forum which is one way I judge things: AFI, Amon Amarth, Arcade Fire, Harry Styles, Death Cab For Cutie, Foo Fighters, Ben Harper, all over a decade into their careers and definitely a lot of dues paid. Or at smaller places, Cannons (9 years old), Chvrches (11 years old), and so on. I think as you mention labels not nurturing I'm rather suspecting this makes it difficult to actually pay dues long enough to get to a point of really having a career. I remember a discussion (SiriusXM Volume?? of Hall & Oates and Abandoned Luncheonette and early Bob Seger records-would have been cut before their first release. Or early Scorpions! I guess now we will depend on TikTok et al to "develop" artists for us...

 

[Head_Unit]

none of this music is any good. All I hear is mumbled lyrics tunelessly rendered (well, except for the overuse of Auto-Tune) and beats so quantized that they could be substituted for an atomic clock.

I think this is sampling error (ha ha!). Yeah there's that stuff...hats off to Bad Bunny for his success but to me it does indeed sound kind of the same mumbling thing. There's a ton of other stuff too however: hard rock/metal, and pop, and country, etc etc as always. And that's just in English, there's a huge market in Spanish here in the USA (not just LA, all over) with a variety of subgenres.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What about composers of film scores like John Williams or Hans Zimmer?

Film scores are written to accompany and enhance the experience of viewing the film so, as accomplished as these gentlement are in their work, I do not wish to listen to their music independent of the visual experience.

 

[DonR]

Film scores are written to accompany and enhance the experience of viewing the film so, as accomplished as these gentlement are in their work, I do not wish to listen to their music independent of the visual experience.

Interestingly while John Williams agrees with you, Hans Zimmer does not https://www.talkclassical.com/threa...for-film-scores-is-not-classical-music.79971/

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Interestingly while John Williams agrees with you, Hans Zimmer does not https://www.talkclassical.com/threa...for-film-scores-is-not-classical-music.79971/

To conclude, my opinion is that much of the music composed for film scores is good classical music: "good" is my personal judgement, but every one can have his own.

I respect his opinion but I do not agree with it..............as he allows.

Indeed, the best score composers sell tickets for concerts.

And who buys those tickets? I'll bet that they are not the same folks that buy tickets for classical music concerts and I suspect that, overwhelmingly, they are people who acknowledge that they like movie soundtrack music. Selling tickets for movie music concerts does not make it classical.

 

[DonR]

I respect his opinion but I do not agree with it..............as he allows.

And who buys those tickets? I'll bet that they are not the same folks that buy tickets for classical music concerts and I suspect that, overwhelmingly, they are people who acknowledge that they like movie soundtrack music. Selling tickets for movie music concerts does not make it classical.

I would almost classify some film scores as "pop" music as it is widely recognized in popular culture even if it was performed by a "classical" orchestra. I do occasionally listen to film scores but more as a nostalgia for the film. Oddly enough images of the film play in my head along with the score so I guess the music is effective.