Surprise findings on Ethernet cables/cleaners/reclockers

[Jinjuku]

You still don't understand and still think in the digital domain only, it seems. Buffering does nothing against common-mode RF noise entering the system, this happens right at the RJ45 input jack and it is an analog phenomenon.

Ok, but where is this a problem? I made a video years ago with a JRiver system that was buffering up entire 24/192 tracks and playback continued regardless of the cable being plugged/unplugged.

If we follow your logic there should at the very least have been a change in fidelity with the cable removed since 'Buffering does nothing'. If your response is going to be the mere existence of the RJ45 jack I've no idea what to say to anyone cause we are all screwed.

This also brings into play that joke of a whitepaper from UpTone were it made my points for me: Use fiber and build a system on SOTA hardware that buffers what you are going to play. I put together a 10GBe capable, MMF, with Cisco and Solar Flare PCIe, FS.COM optics and was routinely getting 332MB/s on low end x86 hardware. For $210, roughly 1/3 the cost and 1000X more performance than a popular audiophile switch.

 

[Jinjuku]

I did. Did you? I didn't see anything on a single active audio streaming service that doesn't use TCP. In fact, the article specifically states the following regarding on-demand media (which is what we are talking about here):

In other words, there is little if any advantage to low latency in the standard on-demand music streaming use case (which was the argument that was made for UDP or other non-TCP based transmission). And every audio streaming service uses TCP, so I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make here at all. I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

You are simply discussing the fact that data at rest ( like pre-recorded audio/video) is bandwidth hungry and latency insensitive while applications like VoiP are bandwidth benign and latency sensitive.

If they don't get your point they never will.

 

[Deleted member 35463]

This was posted on another forum (in German):

Ethernet Infrastructure Measurements - Switches​

https://www.open-end-music.com/foru...von-ethernet-infrastruktur-switches-nur-lesen

Use Google translate if you need help reading it.

Eric, the author of the study, investigates how noise and jitter in an Ethernet transmission can be affected by ethernet cables and various audiophile tweaks, such as switches, EtherRegen and external clocks, isolators, reclockers, and "better" power supplies, such as those from iFi, etc. Unlike most measurements on ASR that are done at the output of a DAC, Eric measures in the digital domain before the DAC.

The last post in that thread contains conclusions so far. Here's a sample (courtesy Google Translate):
View attachment 237865

PS: The title of this post is a bit sarcastic, as I think, most here would not find Eric's findings to be a huge surprise

first things first: tx for sharing the link to this very interesting article with detailed & comprehensive measurements.

BTW at the end of the article the author summarises the findings with way more positive words than what you have picked out: “Der EtherREGEN kann mit den gemessenen Werten durchaus überzeugen. Dies deckt sich mit den vielen positiven Berichten bzgl. seine Klangwirkung. Interessant ist, dass die Ports auf Seite A geringere Störungen als die meist als Ausgangsseite zum Endpoint verwendete Seite B aufzeigen.”
In English this reads as follows:
“The Ether REGEN indeed convices with its measurments, which are in alignment with many positive reports on its effect on SQ.
Interestingly the ports on Side A show lower noise compared to Port B, normally selected to connect to the end point”.

Also the author finds the ifi smps ipowerX very effective (very same article) in further enhancing the results.

 

[sq225917]

It doesn't matter what's taking place in the digital domain before the dac if that isn't carried over into the analogue output, and without measurements of the analogue output this is just an interesting anecdote.

and there's plenty of measurements of the Regen by other parties showing it does nothing to the analogue outputs. So his listening test is called into question

 

[VonGoethe]

Hi all,

I just saw this thread about my work!
Will join the discussion later in more depth as I am currently time limited.

I've been a bits are bits guy for a long time, and had granted myself a very long time against the claim that Ethernet can affect sound - until I heard it for myself and then started investigating this.
I am currently investigating in sound changes by LAN cables and here too you can see quite a few differences in how the cables produce or pass on interference, which must be the reason for the sound changes.
Listening tests are made after my measurements by independent people who do not know the measurement results. Initial results confirm the thesis that noise is responsible for the sound changes.

I will get back to you later.

Best regards,

Eric

 

[VonGoethe]

Some more words for those for whom the subject is new:

The sound difference is not caused by influencing the data signal. This is quite bulletproof over Ethernet as it is a differential signal.
But with the differential signal also common mode noise is transmitted, which gets into the ground of the endpoint (for example Stremer) and is then given further over the digital chain (e.g. USB). With the streamer I use for measuring, all Ethernet noise is transported directly via the USB ground to the DAC. The data are of course bitperfect - there is no doubt about that, so speculations regarding the manipulation of the data is impossible.

The common mode noise are usually quite indifferent to Ethernet, so here with normal "IT" switches only in the context of EMI compatibility is looked.

For more information you can also check this thread:

Diskussion über "Messungen an Ethernet-Infrastruktur" - open-end-music-professional

Diskussion über "Messungen an Ethernet-Infrastruktur"

www.open-end-music.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

Some more words for those for whom the subject is new:

The sound difference is not caused by influencing the data signal. This is quite bulletproof over Ethernet as it is a differential signal.
But with the differential signal also common mode noise is transmitted, which gets into the ground of the endpoint (for example Stremer) and is then given further over the digital chain (e.g. USB). With the streamer I use for measuring, all Ethernet noise is transported directly via the USB ground to the DAC. The data are of course bitperfect - there is no doubt about that, so speculations regarding the manipulation of the data is impossible.

The common mode noise are usually quite indifferent to Ethernet, so here with normal "IT" switches only in the context of EMI compatibility is looked.

For more information you can also check this thread: https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651298-diskussion-ueber-messungen-an-ethernet-infrastruktur#post688782

Give us measurements of the analog output showing these effects.

Your link btw didn't work for me. Opens a blank page.

 

[VonGoethe]

Link should be fixed.
I don't see myself in a debt of gratitude or trying to prove anything to you. It is up to others to research on the analog side, since I am not a specialist here. I can only point out where sound influences come from via the Ethernet path.
If that is not enough for you, then sorry.

I can only recommend to insert an isolator into the Ethernet chain and listen to it. If you don't hear any sound differences, then be happy.
https://www.amazon.de/Network-Insul...8&sprefix=delock+ethernet+surge,aps,90&sr=8-2

 

[voodooless]

Link should be fixed.

I think open-end-music blocks referrals from ASR. If you copy the link an paste it into a new tab it works. This should tell us all we need to know...

Edit: turns out it was still not fixed

 

[symphara]

I think open-end-music blocks referrals from ASR. If you copy the link an paste it into a new tab it works. This should tell us all we need to know...

No, he formatted the link poorly. The measurements are here: https://www.open-end-music.com/foru...von-ethernet-infrastruktur-switches-nur-lesen

But all this Ethernet noise/jitter stuff doesn't seem relevant (at least to me) for audio, since I don't think it makes any difference for the DAC. The DAC will buffer the data anyway, and RF noise should have no effect.

 

[fpitas]

Here we go again

 

[Blumlein 88]

Link should be fixed.
I don't see myself in a debt of gratitude or trying to prove anything to you. It is up to others to research on the analog side, since I am not a specialist here. I can only point out where sound influences come from via the Ethernet path.
If that is not enough for you, then sorry.

I can only recommend to insert an isolator into the Ethernet chain and listen to it. If you don't hear any sound differences, then be happy.
https://www.amazon.de/Network-Insulator-Protection-Lightning-62619-gray/dp/B00WZ3QHVQ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3S2D8BTSMNJIY&keywords=delock+ethernet+surge&qid=1673953178&sprefix=delock+ethernet+surge,aps,90&sr=8-2

Sorry, but if you predicate a difference as proven on uncontrolled listening, then no it is up to you to show more. I tried translating the page, but couldn't see what you intended I don't think.

If all you have to offer is listen and see if it sounds different, then you have nothing to offer. We've been thru this before.

 

[fpitas]

Link should be fixed.
I don't see myself in a debt of gratitude or trying to prove anything to you. It is up to others to research on the analog side, since I am not a specialist here. I can only point out where sound influences come from via the Ethernet path.
If that is not enough for you, then sorry.

I can only recommend to insert an isolator into the Ethernet chain and listen to it. If you don't hear any sound differences, then be happy.
https://www.amazon.de/Network-Insulator-Protection-Lightning-62619-gray/dp/B00WZ3QHVQ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3S2D8BTSMNJIY&keywords=delock+ethernet+surge&qid=1673953178&sprefix=delock+ethernet+surge,aps,90&sr=8-2

Maybe. But we won't, it's your idea

If this was true BTW, it would be very important to not just audio but general Ethernet transmission and reception. The reality is, noise and perturbations are expected on the Ethernet signal. Receivers are designed to cope with that and not lose bits etc.

 

[VonGoethe]

I think I will retire here again.
I don't want to be discredited by people whose horizon only reaches a SINAD value.

I have not offered anything here or have to prove anything here. The thread was started independently of me here.

If you are really interested in bringing some light into the darkness, you can contact me via PM or post in the open-end-music forum. Otherwise, have fun reducing the sound characteristics of gears to a single value.

I have no desire to bash audiophiles, prove anything to others, or be a know-it-all. I am just curious to understand my own experience scientifically. If you have not had these experiences, be happy and avoid this topic, because it only leads to incredibly stupid discussions.

 

[fpitas]

I think I will retire here again.
I don't want to be discredited by people whose horizon only reaches a SINAD value.

I have not offered anything here or have to prove anything here. The thread was started independently of me here.

If you are really interested in bringing some light into the darkness, you can contact me via PM or post in the open-end-music forum. Otherwise, have fun reducing the sound characteristics of gears to a single value.

I have no desire to bash audiophiles, prove anything to others, or be a know-it-all. I am just curious to understand my own experience scientifically. If you have not had these experiences, be happy and avoid this topic, because it only leads to incredibly stupid discussions.

That's all great, but it won't work in a scientific context. As I and others explained, your claim is extraordinary, bordering on fantastic.

 

[pkane]

I think I will retire here again.
I don't want to be discredited by people whose horizon only reaches a SINAD value.

I have not offered anything here or have to prove anything here. The thread was started independently of me here.

If you are really interested in bringing some light into the darkness, you can contact me via PM or post in the open-end-music forum. Otherwise, have fun reducing the sound characteristics of gears to a single value.

I have no desire to bash audiophiles, prove anything to others, or be a know-it-all. I am just curious to understand my own experience scientifically. If you have not had these experiences, be happy and avoid this topic, because it only leads to incredibly stupid discussions.

You're being very unfair to the people you're talking to by minimizing their knowledge and expertise in an area you obviously don't understand. I bet nobody here is interested in reducing anything to a single value except for you, and you appear to want to do this with individuals instead of equipment.

 

[PierreV]

I am tired of audiophiles' suggestions to improve Ethernet. Would anyone have a link to data center architects' suggestions about musical composition?

 

[fpitas]

I am tired of audiophiles' suggestions to improve Ethernet. Would anyone have a link to data center architects' suggestions about musical composition?

Right? To see the stuff audiophiles write, you would think Ethernet links were hovering on the brink of massive bit error rates constantly. Only their cockamamie solutions can save it!

 

[BDWoody]

I am just curious to understand my own experience scientifically.

Doesn't seem like it, since the people here could actually help you. Either you have no idea where you are, or you aren't really interested in understanding after all.

 

[anotherhobby]

Some more words for those for whom the subject is new:

The sound difference is not caused by influencing the data signal. This is quite bulletproof over Ethernet as it is a differential signal.
But with the differential signal also common mode noise is transmitted, which gets into the ground of the endpoint (for example Stremer) and is then given further over the digital chain (e.g. USB). With the streamer I use for measuring, all Ethernet noise is transported directly via the USB ground to the DAC. The data are of course bitperfect - there is no doubt about that, so speculations regarding the manipulation of the data is impossible.

The common mode noise are usually quite indifferent to Ethernet, so here with normal "IT" switches only in the context of EMI compatibility is looked.

For more information you can also check this thread:

Diskussion über "Messungen an Ethernet-Infrastruktur" - open-end-music-professional

Diskussion über "Messungen an Ethernet-Infrastruktur"

www.open-end-music.com

You are just talking about ground noise. It has nothing to do with "Ethernet" specifically, although quality Ethernet cables are better at rejecting it. It kind of doesn't matter if it was CPU/GPU noise that went into USB (same thing happens on my Mac with 3/4 of my DACs), or Ethernet noise that migrated into USB noise, it's all just ground noise, and it can be 100% isolated in digital. You can just air gap that shit with an optical cable and it's gone. I do not consider external forces introducuing ground noise into an electrical signal carrying digital content, and then you not mitigating that external noise, evidence of meaninful "sound changes."