Subwoofer or amplifier upgrade or both?

[BossBunos]

So I'm currently running the Salon 2's with a purifi amp and the minidsp SHD. Since I like low/sub bass I have a +6db dirac bass curve. This results in the amp muting the outputs (clipping) when I'm playing tracks that have a lot of deep bass. I contacted Harman to check how much power the salons can handle. Their answer is 500W RMS and more for peaks and they recommend some headroom in the amp. So for now I'm considering the 2 following options:
1- Sell the purifi and buy the nc1200 or nc2k monoblocks. Where I'm more tempted towards the nc2k since the nc1200 does 600w in 4 ohms while the purifi does 425(?) So that would hardly be an upgrade.
2- low shelf the salons by 3 or 6 db sub 100hz or so to offload the purifi amp and add a subwoofer.

The first option has the downside that you put a lot of stress on the salons. And you won't be able to fill the dips in the frequency response.

Second option has the downside that it needs proper integration. Another is that I don't know if I get it passed the wife. Already had to take her to dinner when I got the salons cause they were so big . Maybe the svs3000 micro(s) are an option, although I don't know if they are able to pressurize the room enough.

Anyone has some experience with this and some advise? Thanks!

 

[ryanosaur]

I do almost all my listening in 2.1. My mains are solid to 25Hz. I still cross at 80 to some capable Subs.
I also have plenty of overhead on my Amps driving my Mains.

So, I say: BOTH!

But more seriously, do you have enough power on hand to drive your Speakers properly for your listening habits if Bass were not the issue?

What do you listen to that requires the addition of the Sub? Are you listening to program with infrasonic content?

I cannot in good conscience ever recommend such a small sub as those micro/ lifestyle solutions. Which further begs the question, how big is the room you are in and how much are you into tweaking with REW or using other Bass Management options like DIRAC?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

So I'm currently running the Salon 2's with a purifi amp and the minidsp SHD. Since I like low/sub bass I have a +6db dirac bass curve. This results in the amp muting the outputs (clipping) when I'm playing tracks that have a lot of deep bass. I contacted Harman to check how much power the salons can handle. Their answer is 500W RMS and more for peaks and they recommend some headroom in the amp. So for now I'm considering the 2 following options:
1- Sell the purifi and buy the nc1200 or nc2k monoblocks. Where I'm more tempted towards the nc2k since the nc1200 does 600w in 4 ohms while the purifi does 425(?) So that would hardly be an upgrade.
2- low shelf the salons by 3 or 6 db sub 100hz or so to offload the purifi amp and add a subwoofer.

The first option has the downside that you put a lot of stress on the salons. And you won't be able to fill the dips in the frequency response.

Second option has the downside that it needs proper integration. Another is that I don't know if I get it passed the wife. Already had to take her to dinner when I got the salons cause they were so big . Maybe the svs3000 micro(s) are an option, although I don't know if they are able to pressurize the room enough.

Anyone has some experience with this and some advise? Thanks!

Hi.
I the end only you can decide.

I recently went for sub(s) (2xKef KF92) to fight the room modes and extent the bass of my Kef Reference 3.

While doing so I had also tested the SVS 3000 Micro and the Kef KC62 at home because I wanted a small form factor for aesthetic reasons. Forget it. The KEFs Ref 3 had more bass without the small subs. And most likely so do have the Salons. Unless the room is really small, which I don’t believe is the case with you, because otherwise the Salon 2s wouldn’t fit.

 

[DVDdoug]

If you ever want to integrate movies/surround sound you loose the "point one" LFE channel without a dedicated subwoofer so you'll want one anyway.

Otherwise I wouldn't think you'd need a sub. I'd guess you just need an amp that doesn't crap-out.

Where I'm more tempted towards the nc2k since the nc1200 does 600w in 4 ohms while the purifi does 425(?) So that would hardly be an upgrade.

I'm not sure if you need more wattage or if you just need an amp that doesn't shut-down. But +6dB is 4 times the power. Do you think it's heat related? Does the Purify have enough air circulation? Maybe add a little fan?

If you go with a sub you probably want at-least the piston area of your existing speakers (although that may be an over-simplification).

This results in the amp muting the outputs (clipping) when I'm playing tracks that have a lot of deep bass.

That's not clipping. Clipping is distortion with the positive & negative waveform peaks "clipped off".

 

[BossBunos]

I do almost all my listening in 2.1. My mains are solid to 25Hz. I still cross at 80 to some capable Subs.
I also have plenty of overhead on my Amps driving my Mains.

So, I say: BOTH!

But more seriously, do you have enough power on hand to drive your Speakers properly for your listening habits if Bass were not the issue?

What do you listen to that requires the addition of the Sub? Are you listening to program with infrasonic content?

I cannot in good conscience ever recommend such a small sub as those micro/ lifestyle solutions. Which further begs the question, how big is the room you are in and how much are you into tweaking with REW or using other Bass Management options like DIRAC?

Yeah if bass is not the issue I'm happy with the power of the purifi. It's the 6db boost in the low impedance region that is triggering overcurrent/load protection I think (if I look a the purifi protection circuitry here 6.2 and 6.3). And for clarification I'm indeed using dirac live. Example tracks where it happens is "Astronaut in the ocean" by masked wolf and i believe it happened also with "High water everywhere - Live)" by Joe Bonamassa

 

[ryanosaur]

Otherwise I wouldn't think you'd need a sub.

This is the only line I don't agree with.

I'm not sure if you need more wattage or if you just need an amp that doesn't shut-down. But +6dB is 4 times the power. Do you think it's heat related? Does the Purify have enough air circulation? Maybe add a little fan?

This has me thinking of a couple different possible issues and when our friendly OP says "mutes the output" it leads me to think that he is wiping out the capacitance bank of the amplifier and it is rolling off the way an underpowered Sub Amp will.

Regarding size of Sub, this is more about what our OP is chasing (along with size of room. If OP is a Pipe Organ freak, or listening to EDM with infrasonic content (as well as some HT application), then they really need to be looking for something that can do 16Hz, strong. If that infrasonic output is not needed, then smaller 10-12" Subs may well do what is needed.

 

[BossBunos]

Hi.
I the end only you can decide.

I recently went for sub(s) (2xKef KF92) to fight the room modes and extent the bass of my Kef Reference 3.

While doing so I had also tested the SVS 3000 Micro and the Kef KC62 at home because I wanted a small form factor for aesthetic reasons. Forget it. The KEFs Ref 3 had more bass without the small subs. And most likely so do have the Salons. Unless the room is really small, which I don’t believe is the case with you, because otherwise the Salon 2s wouldn’t fit.

I would say the bass from the salons is sufficient it goes down to 20hz in room. My amp just lacks the power sometimes when I want to listen loud. The room is about 150m3 or 5300ft3 for the non metric guys. Interesting that the svs also wasn't a good experience. It goes deeper and louder than the kef sub

 

[ryanosaur]

I would say the bass from the salons is sufficient it goes down to 20hz in room. My amp just lacks the power sometimes when I want to listen loud. The room is about 150m3 or 5300ft3 for the non metric guys. Interesting that the svs also wasn't a good experience. It goes deeper and louder than the kef sub

Part of the thing I like about using Subs is that there is sometimes surprising content that gets lost in the smaller drivers of even large tower Speakers. Mining for Gold by Cowboy Junkies is an example of a cut where this is evident; the open mic is picking up the ambient room noise prior to Margo's vocals.
Anyway, a benefit of the Sub is that it also takes that load off the Speaker and Amp. If you listen to Hip Hop like that on the regular, and bump it pretty hard, you are definitely putting some high demand on the system. My Subs chewed that cut up like it was nothing. I have a pair of Outlaw X-13s with 13.5" drivers, nothing obscene like you see some of my fellow bass-heads running, but they go strong to 16hz.

This becomes a value proposition for you.

You can buy the Amp of your choice (I vote monoblock if for no other reason than I just like giving my Speakers each their own Power Supply). But what happens as you boost your bass, AND give those Drivers much more juice?
You go for some Subs. I'd recommend 2 good matching Subs, at least 12" that can hit 18Hz. This will take the stress off the Speakers, give you dedicated output where you want it most.

Yeah, Subs take up space, and the more output and lower extension you chase, the bigger they will need to be. That said, some respectable 12" Subs can do wonders. 15" Subs can do even better!

Of course, I'm also a bass-head that loves Pipe Organ. I also listens to other music with infrasonic content that would destroy my otherwise capable Speakers. For me, Subs were a requirement when I was building my system.

 

[BossBunos]

Part of the thing I like about using Subs is that there is sometimes surprising content that gets lost in the smaller drivers of even large tower Speakers. Mining for Gold by Cowboy Junkies is an example of a cut where this is evident; the open mic is picking up the ambient room noise prior to Margo's vocals.
Anyway, a benefit of the Sub is that it also takes that load off the Speaker and Amp. If you listen to Hip Hop like that on the regular, and bump it pretty hard, you are definitely putting some high demand on the system. My Subs chewed that cut up like it was nothing. I have a pair of Outlaw X-13s with 13.5" drivers, nothing obscene like you see some of my fellow bass-heads running, but they go strong to 16hz.

This becomes a value proposition for you.

You can buy the Amp of your choice (I vote monoblock if for no other reason than I just like giving my Speakers each their own Power Supply). But what happens as you boost your bass, AND give those Drivers much more juice?
You go for some Subs. I'd recommend 2 good matching Subs, at least 12" that can hit 18Hz. This will take the stress off the Speakers, give you dedicated output where you want it most.

Yeah, Subs take up space, and the more output and lower extension you chase, the bigger they will need to be. That said, some respectable 12" Subs can do wonders. 15" Subs can do even better!

Of course, I'm also a bass-head that loves Pipe Organ. I also listens to other music with infrasonic content that would destroy my otherwise capable Speakers. For me, Subs were a requirement when I was building my system.

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it I'll probably do both. Start with 1 sub to offload the mains and amp. And later on probably more powerful amps for more dynamics/headroom.

 

[BossBunos]

Part of the thing I like about using Subs is that there is sometimes surprising content that gets lost in the smaller drivers of even large tower Speakers. Mining for Gold by Cowboy Junkies is an example of a cut where this is evident; the open mic is picking up the ambient room noise prior to Margo's vocals.
Anyway, a benefit of the Sub is that it also takes that load off the Speaker and Amp. If you listen to Hip Hop like that on the regular, and bump it pretty hard, you are definitely putting some high demand on the system. My Subs chewed that cut up like it was nothing. I have a pair of Outlaw X-13s with 13.5" drivers, nothing obscene like you see some of my fellow bass-heads running, but they go strong to 16hz.

This becomes a value proposition for you.

You can buy the Amp of your choice (I vote monoblock if for no other reason than I just like giving my Speakers each their own Power Supply). But what happens as you boost your bass, AND give those Drivers much more juice?
You go for some Subs. I'd recommend 2 good matching Subs, at least 12" that can hit 18Hz. This will take the stress off the Speakers, give you dedicated output where you want it most.

Yeah, Subs take up space, and the more output and lower extension you chase, the bigger they will need to be. That said, some respectable 12" Subs can do wonders. 15" Subs can do even better!

Of course, I'm also a bass-head that loves Pipe Organ. I also listens to other music with infrasonic content that would destroy my otherwise capable Speakers. For me, Subs were a requirement when I was building my system.

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it I'll probably do both. Start with 1 sub to offload the mains and amp. And later on probably more powerful amps for more dynamics/headroom. Any tips for the sub? I was looking at SBS sb3000+ range. Maybe there is a good eu produced alternative?

 

[ryanosaur]

In EU, there is XTZ and Arendal, with BK Elec in the UK. There could be others I am not aware of.
May be worth looking in to whether Monolith Subs are available where you are, but they are mainly US.
SVS 3000 series is very well respected. Over on our side, that may be the best buy in the SVS lineup.

As for ported vs Sealed... I'm not interested in picking fights. I prefer ported. More efficiency down low, and a well designed ported Sub performs on equal footong with a sealed.
But where you are, the market may dictate otherwise.
Learn about Subwoofer measurements, what they mean and how to interpret them... If you are interested. Figure out what you need for your personal goals and usage. Make certain you are getting a Sub that will connect the way you want and give you the control you need for your system.

In the long run, most well designed Subs are more similar than not, and it is the usability or personal aesthetic that ends up making the difference.

 

[BossBunos]

Thanks I'll look into those brands. Ported would be a problem in terms of size vs waf I'm afraid. I'm running a minidsp SHD so I'm familiar with measuring and already read several articles on their site about integrating a sub in a stereo system.

 

[audiofooled]

Please don't get me wrong, but I'm guessing your main issue, of all things, would be your set up. That is, if your fighting room modes just by using more power, eventually you run out of juice. No way the song you mentioned should be taxing your amp/speakers unless you really want to bring your house down.

Some room modes freebie https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc
Here you can enter your room dimensions and see if your speakers/listening position are placed in a good region and not canceling each other out.

Other than that, if there are no other placement options for you, I would consider a larger diameter sealed sub, 15" or more, given your room volume. There's a nice thread on here about zeroth or DC room mode, and how a sealed vs. ported sub affects it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/analytical-analysis-room-gain.23211/

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks I'll look into those brands. Ported would be a problem in terms of size vs waf I'm afraid. I'm running a minidsp SHD so I'm familiar with measuring and already read several articles on their site about integrating a sub in a stereo system.

End of the day: You do what you need to do for You. Your system, your ducats.
If anything, check back before you pull the trigger. Just in case.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I would say the bass from the salons is sufficient it goes down to 20hz in room. My amp just lacks the power sometimes when I want to listen loud. The room is about 150m3 or 5300ft3 for the non metric guys. Interesting that the svs also wasn't a good experience. It goes deeper and louder than the kef sub

As others have written by now too. It is all about the room modes. Both of our mains have “enough “ bass, but the mains placement (equilateral triangle) inevitably create nulls and peaks (up to +- 20dB) in frequency below ca 250Hz. This you can only smoothen by strategically placed sub(s). See this forum or Floyd Tooles book or Google. Feeding more power to the mains created null doesn’t do anything but creating distortion, therefore a more powerful amp will not gain you anything.

As for the SVS3000 Micro, which you previously mentioned to me, and which I tested in my system. Neither the Micro nor the KC62 produce enough SPL to play with the Salon nor my Refs 3. That’s why I had to go bigger (2xKF92) and that is what you should be doing. The svs3000 (not the micro) is already much more suited.

 

[ryanosaur]

Agreed.
The micro is not s Sub. It is a toy.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Agreed.
The micro is not s Sub. It is a toy.

Yeah. Maybe ok for a 9m2 room and I would have loved the small form factor for aesthetic reasons, but you can’t cheat physics. Size simply matters (in subs )

 

[BossBunos]

I actually don't have too much trouble with room modes (nulls). I have a huge peak at 30hz. I attached in an room RTA measurement at the MLP with dirac/eq off and with dirac on. Sure dirac boosts some db's but not that much. It's just that my room is big and I sometimes like to listen at concert levels

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I actually don't have too much trouble with room modes (nulls). I have a huge peak at 30hz. I attached in an room RTA measurement at the MLP with dirac/eq off and with dirac on. Sure dirac boosts some db's but not that much. It's just that my room is big and I sometimes like to listen at concert levels

You are right that doesn’t look too bad.

 

[dlaloum]

I am unconvinced about the necessity of subs for music, with a set of proper full range "mains".

Yes - often you won't extract those capability from your mains without either robust amplification, or biamping... - the bass can suck serious levels of power.

My Gallo Ref 3.2's are specified down to 24Hz - in BiAmp mode.... But Anthony Gallo used to demonstrate them with a single spectron musician amp, and no biamping....

For movies, with a LFE channel - best results are achieved with a Sub - but assuming you have a set of proper full range speakers - the current predilection for multi-subs, does not have me convinced.

Dirac Live seems to do a good job of evening things out in the low end, it isn't DLBC or a specialised sub balancer - but I am very satisfied with the results, on a setup within is 5.1.... and for the time being, have packed away my 2nd sub - it seemed redundant.

Having said all that - my opinion was not the same when I was running 140W into the front mains... the bass did at the time sound better when BiAmped (with a 2nd 140W amp) - but since moving to 440W of Class D - I have experimented with Biamping vs SingleAmping - and there was no noticeable difference.... so I opted for the simpler solution!