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Starting with turntables

Robin L

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I can’t see how the act of consuming music, regardless of format, is remotely intellectual in a broad sense.
Funny, though. The one "record store" job I held on to for the longest time was next door to "University Press Books", a shop that wasn't attached to UC Berkeley but sold books from universities throughout the globe. The Musical Offering and University Press Books were tied by bonds of finance and friendship. Of course, The Musical Offering was a store that specialized in "Early Music", Bach and Pre-Bach (and later historically informed performances of composers from the classical and romantic eras) and had attachments to both Cal Performances and the San Francisco Early Music Society. Lots of UC Berkeley faculty would shop at both stores, then have lunch at our cafe. I knew many musical performers who would listen to recordings much as they would study scores. I'd say that sort of thing was much more than "remotely intellectual".
 
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computer-audiophile

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The other thing I notice is that, if vinyl is so prohibitively expensive, why do so many vinyl enthusiasts have such large record collections? I see far more large record collections than I ever remember when I was young during vinyl's hey-day. Even today I have a far bigger record collection than I, or my music-loving father, ever had in the 70's/80s.
Somehow, many people seem to afford large collections.
Most of the records I own today cost me nothing at all. In fact, this is my third attempt at building a record collection. Twice before, in the course of my audio journey, I had given away everything I had on vinyl.

Then I came across this extensive, valuable and expertly curated record collection, which now makes up a large part of my collection. It comes from a retired professional musician from the Dresden Philharmonics. Everything just fits. Since I've lived here in East Germany, I've had a special interest in the former art scene here, which used to be hidden behind a wall for me. I've also read a lot of literature about it. Excellent classical records were produced in the former GDR, many of which I now own. Almost all of them are in mint condition, i.e. obviously unplayed. That is quite astonishing.
 
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JP

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Funny, though. The one "record store" job I held on to for the longest time was next door to "University Press Books", a shop that wasn't attached to UC Berkeley but sold books from universities throughout the globe. The Musical Offering and University Press Books were tied by bonds of finance and friendship. Of course, The Musical Offering was a store that specialized in "Early Music", Bach and Pre-Bach (and later historically informed performances of composers from the classical and romantic eras) and had attachments to both Cal Performances and the San Francisco Early Music Society. I knew many musical performers who would listen to recordings much as they would study scores. I'd say that sort of thing was much more than "remotely intellectual".

That isn’t in a broad sense, and I’ll ask if the format the music was delivered on would materially undermine their ability to study the music by listening?

To my sentiment, putting obvious niches aside, if you grab 100 random people off the street, they’re not going to understand much at all about how what they listen to gets to them.
 

MattHooper

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Lowering a needle on a record is culturally as significant as expertise on classics?

First, that doesn't answer my question.

Second, whose culture? And who gets to decide the "significance?"

One could say that greek sculpture or mythology hardly plays a big role in our current culture, and that a young girl lowering a needle on her Taylor Swift record
has more current "cultural significance" than Greek mythology has, in terms of what is actually going on in the zeitgeist and the role it has in her life.
And in the same way, one could possibly even argue even the vinyl revival currently is more "culturally significant" than Greek art.
 

Robin L

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That isn’t in a broad sense, and I’ll ask if the format the music was delivered on would materially undermine their ability to study the music by listening?
Our store carried only CDs by that time, though plenty of the customers also shopped for LPs down on Telegraph Avenue. A lot of our customers were musicians, either professional or skilled amateurs. Reading score while listening to a performance is a good way to study music. I'll admit a skipping groove won't help.
To my sentiment, putting obvious niches aside, if you grab 100 random people off the street, they’re not going to understand much at all about how what they listen to gets to them.
"But you don't really care for music, do ya.?"
If one grabs 100 random people off the street, one will encounter a lot of people that really aren't all that engaged with music anyway.
 

Multicore

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I agree in the limited context of the subjectivist "analog is superior to digital" context. But in the broader context of people enjoying old records, I disagree. A lot of the issues of our "retrograde zeitgeist" have their root in a culture separated from physical reality. Spinning vinyl is a pleasant way to disconnect from the ether and immerse in the physical.
Preaching to the choir there, pal. I wrote this many years ago. It was usefully updated in the comments.

 

Robin L

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But your arguments can be turned on their head. It's true that jewel cases are very easily damaged. This means one should use more care with jewel cases, much as one needs to take care with the surfaces of an LP. And while it's true that one can choose to rip a CD as a MP3, one who cares about sound would not do that. Also, those that do back up to FLAC or ALAC know the back-ups can become unplayable over time, meaning they would be best off keeping the discs. It's true that cover art and liner notes are miniaturized versions of recordings that first appeared as LPs, but this behooves those making CDs from scratch to use their ingenuity to come up with cover art appropriate to the format. Ultimately there's the issue of the likelihood of LPs wearing out. Only a few audiophiles have the sort of gear that can avoid this, and I find it immoral to buy and then re-buy a recording as each copy degrades. Massive waste of PVC, if you ask me.
 

Multicore

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But your arguments can be turned on their head. It's true that jewel cases are very easily damaged. This means one should use more care with jewel cases, much as one needs to take care with the surfaces of an LP. And while it's true that one can choose to rip a CD as a MP3, one who cares about sound would not do that. Also, those that do back up to FLAC or ALAC know the back-ups can become unplayable over time, meaning they would be best off keeping the discs. It's true that cover art and liner notes are miniaturized versions of recordings that first appeared as LPs, but this behooves those making CDs from scratch to use their ingenuity to come up with cover art appropriate to the format. Ultimately there's the issue of the likelihood of LPs wearing out. Only a few audiophiles have the sort of gear that can avoid this, and I find it immoral to buy and then re-buy a recording as each copy degrades. Massive waste of PVC, if you ask me.
It's polemics.

Substituting one consumer good for another isn't a way out of consumer hell. The objectification of music itself has already condemned us.
 

Zapper

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The other thing I notice is that, if vinyl is so prohibitively expensive, why do so many vinyl enthusiasts have such large record collections? I see far more large record collections than I ever remember when I was young during vinyl's hey-day. Even today I have a far bigger record collection than I, or my music-loving father, ever had in the 70's/80s.
Somehow, many people seem to afford large collections.
Could it be the demographics of the collectors you know - perhaps older, perhaps upper middle class? The returns on economic growth have mostly gone to the upper middle class and higher over the 4 decades since vinyl ruled. Those of us lucky to be in that group have more disposable income than our parents did. I know I do, and with one income vs my PhD parents' two.

Also, there was a time you could walk out of the Salvation Army store with a box of LPs for $20. Anyone collecting LPs then had it made.
 
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JP

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Our store carried only CDs by that time, though plenty of the customers also shopped for LPs down on Telegraph Avenue. A lot of our customers were musicians, either professional or skilled amateurs. Reading score while listening to a performance is a good way to study music. I'll admit a skipping groove won't help.

"But you don't really care for music, do ya.?"
If one grabs 100 random people off the street, one will encounter a lot of people that really aren't all that engaged with music anyway.
I think the gist of my sentiments was sufficiently clear. I’m not going to sit here and right-fight about it.
 

computer-audiophile

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Said like a true globalist. Let's see what residents of the bombed locale think?
Vinyl chloride is a precursor from which PVC (polyvinyl chloride) is made. PVC is one of the best-selling plastics of all. Around 50 million tons of it are produced every year. You can imagine that vinyl record production accounts for a negligible proportion of this. In fact, this is a global consideration. Chemical accidents are of course terrible, I don't want to gloss over that.
 

Multicore

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Vinyl chloride is a precursor from which PVC (polyvinyl chloride) is made. PVC is one of the best-selling plastics of all. Around 50 million tons of it are produced every year. You can imagine that vinyl record production accounts for a negligible proportion of this. In fact, this is a global consideration. Chemical accidents are of course terrible, I don't want to gloss over that.
In relation to global demand for any given commodity my consumer choices are insignificant.
 

Angsty

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Find yourself a 1983 PS-F5 Sony to save space. :)

View attachment 331301
The Sound Burger is still produced as a minimalist record player for newbies. But I don’t think it can play vertically.


For vertical play, Pro-ject makes the VTE:

 

Zapper

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This is a bad time for newbies to get into LPs. I would recommend that newcomers who want to play used LPs get a cartridge that tracks at 2.5 grams or more. I used a Shure M-44 7 cartridge when I transcribed LPs to digital formats for others. Nothing else worked as well at sticking in the groove while playing old, messed up records. I understand they are becoming unobtanium. The Audio Technica AT-XP3 cartridge should have similar characteristics.
Playing old messed up records with a heavy tracking conical stylus doesn't sound like a great audio experience.
 

Galliardist

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It would have to be set against the environmental impact of the server farms from which we retrieve our music today.
In fact the additional environmental impact of a dozen or so companies storing and streaming music today is going to be less than that of any of the ongoing production in physical formats, or indeed that of all the stored music on locally held hard drives, servers and similar.

Note the word "additional" - I don't want to downplay the effect of server farms overall. I have though seen figures which suggest that cloud storage has in fact reduced the overall environmental footprint of corporate IT over time, and that larger server farms will cause further improvement in the near future as some will have attached renewable generation (if owners keep their promises on the matter) and concentrating storage allows for faster adoption of more environmentally friendly technology. It's that latter advantage that is making gains at the moment.
 

Angsty

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Perhaps I am whizzing into the wind, but I’m going to try to stay on topic: “starting with turntables.” We certainly have other threads that plumb the “vices” of vinyl production and playback and the supposed “virtues” of digital.

For a newbie who wants to select a new turntable that does not have a cartridge included (not my recommendation, but it could happen) - what to do?

Buy a turntable with an “S” curve tonearm and a detachable headshell. Why not a straight tonearm? They are generally harder to align with a cartridge than a S curve. The alignment with a S curve generally requires just that you measure the distance from the end of the headshell to the stylus tip. A straight tonearm will often require a turntable protractor to get the alignment geometry correct. It is more complex to pull off, but not rocket science. It’s not the best newbie experience, though. Detachable headshells make the distance measurement on a S-curve tonearm much easier and also makes installation of the cartridge itself simpler.

Select a quality MM cartridge. A quality entry level cartridge will have a replaceable diamond stylus and an aluminum cantilever, not carbon fiber. Make sure that you can actually find replacement styli online before you buy the cartridge. I’d recommend an elliptical stylus versus a conical (aka spherical) stylus, but conicals tend to be less expensive even if they use the same cartridge body as an elliptical. If buying a conical, look for ones where you can upgrade to elliptical with a simple stylus change. The best of the entry level cartridges mostly will be between US$100 and $150, so budget appropriately. I’d recommend avoiding “exotic” styli like fine line, Shibata or microline, for now. They often can be more finicky in alignment (and vertical tracking angle) to get their best sound compared to a conical or elliptical. My go-to recommendation is the Nagaoka MP-110; I don’t recall anyone finding it to be objectionable and many see it as a long-term preference.

Get a stylus pressure gauge. Also known as a VTF scale or stylus force scale. You cannot rely on the graduated markings on the tonearm weight for a correct stylus force setting. An accurate stylus pressure gauge can be had for less than US$20 and will prevent you from damaging your records with too much down force. Consult the cartridge manufacturer’s specs on the right setting.

Be careful of buying a P-mount cartridge. It’s a special type of cartridge that is not widely used anymore. Though, for an older turntable with a P-mount, changing carts is literally plug-and-play with no alignment required.

Match the phono preamp to the cartridge. The OP had a phonostage in their integrated amp, so this was not an issue. Some new turntables have integrated phonos, but low cost turntables often skimp in quality here. If you need to buy a separate phono, look for one that is in the US$100 - $200 range that focuses on MM performance. Amir has tested several good ones like the Schiit Mani 2, U-turn Pluto 2 and Cambridge Audio Solo. I’d recommend the Classic Audio Spartan 5 at the high end of the newbie price range. Don’t spend more than twice your initial cartridge price on your initial phono - keep them in the same range. Your phono tastes may change with cartridge preferences, so make this an easy item item to replace later.

There could be other tips I have overlooked, but this will get a newbie started. As you can plainly see, this is a lot more involved than just buying a turntable with a cartridge pre-installed!
 
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