Sound stage depth?

[Wowarning]

But "the band in the room" got nothing to do with hearing the depth of the recording, which was your original question. If you hear that it's a clear indication that the reflections in your listening room are the dominating factor, not the reflections of the recorded room.

The reason you can't hear the reverberation of the recorded room is one or a combination of the following reasons. The specific recording doesn't contain a convincing room sound, your stereo speakers are not positioned correctly, your ears receive a higher ratio of reflective room sound from your own listening environment, or your speaker simply doesn't have the quality to reproduce the finer details and clues for the depth of the recording to be heard.

I don't think it's a "you problem" and got anything to do with your lack of imagination. If you visit someone with properly setup good speakers in a good listening room, I'm sure you will hear the depth in the recordings.

Admittedly, I may not be expressing myself as clearly as possible. I'm not trying to say that there is no 3 dimensionality at all to my soundstage. I built a pair of the CSS Criton 1TD-X speakers, also built ncore monoblocks, and did not build a Parasound P6 preamp/dac, lol - my system is not high end, but it's the result of trying to maximize results per dollar spent and I'm pretty happy with the results so far. My soundstage doesn't sound like flat piece of paper, there is some body/depth to it, but I'm not hearing different instruments placed different places along that front to back axis - e.g. the singer is 1 ft in front of my speakers, the guitar player is behind him even with the speakers, the drummer is in the back behind my speakers. The ability to even do so (on close mic'ed/multitracked recordings) would have to be a newer development and would be a bit of a mystery to me, but maybe it exists and I just don't know about it - I excluded stereo mic'ing of a group of instruments. I never said I "can't hear the reverberation of the recorded room" - I said I don't hear multitracked instruments placed at different distances. If other people are hearing that, either I need to spend a lot more money, they're high, or it is a "me problem" lol.

“Qsound is essentially a filtering algorithm. It manipulates timing, amplitude, and frequency response to produce a binaural image. Systems like QSound rely on the fact that a sound arriving from one side of the listener will reach one ear before the other and that when it reaches the furthest ear, it is lower in amplitude and spectrally altered due to obstruction by the head. However, the ideal algorithm was arrived at empirically, with parameters adjusted according to the outcomes of many listening tests.”

No time now, but I'll look into this - this might be the explanation of what I'm looking for. Don't know if this will fall into the "illusion" category or be the "aha" moment I'm seeking. Thank you.

 

[Bob from Florida]

With regards to capacitors - if real world caps were ideal the discussion about upgrading crossover components would be largely "moot". So, a bit of research on ESR - equivalent series resistance - yields some data worth considering.
From Murata the chart below compares ESR's of various types of caps - 10 uf @ 25 volts. The link for the complete read is -

https://article.murata.com/en-us/article/impedance-esr-frequency-characteristics-in-capacitors

OEM's like to save money and electrolytic caps are cost effective. The above example shows significant ESR - not to be confused with Z - dotted line shows close to 10 ohms in the audio band. If you were to use this aluminum electrolytic in a crossover you would take that value into consideration during design and testing. "Upgrading" it to a film capacitor would totally "fuck up" your crossover design if you did not add resistance to compensate. This is most likely what happens in some cases when folks throw in these "recommended " upgrades. I am not saying this is always the case - it would depend on the characteristics of the original parts. I am saying - without specific example proof - that some of these reported "improvements" are in possibly inadvertent crossover design changes. Once you do that it is no longer an apple to apple comparison. On the other hand if you compensated - added series resistance in this case - would it sound different than the original? Probably not.

 

[fpitas]

With regards to capacitors - if real world caps were ideal the discussion about upgrading crossover components would be largely "moot". So, a bit of research on ESR - equivalent series resistance - yields some data worth considering.
From Murata the chart below compares ESR's of various types of caps - 10 uf @ 25 volts. The link for the complete read is -

https://article.murata.com/en-us/article/impedance-esr-frequency-characteristics-in-capacitors


View attachment 231968

OEM's like to save money and electrolytic caps are cost effective. The above example shows significant ESR - not to be confused with Z - dotted line shows close to 10 ohms in the audio band. If you were to use this aluminum electrolytic in a crossover you would take that value into consideration during design and testing. "Upgrading" it to a film capacitor would totally "fuck up" your crossover design if you did not add resistance to compensate. This is most likely what happens in some cases when folks throw in these "recommended " upgrades. I am not saying this is always the case - it would depend on the characteristics of the original parts. I am saying - without specific example proof - that some of these reported "improvements" are in possibly inadvertent crossover design changes. Once you do that it is no longer an apple to apple comparison. On the other hand if you compensated - added series resistance in this case - would it sound different than the original? Probably not.

Another point I've made to the inveterate crossover tweakers, is that the substituted part may not be (in fact seldom is) exactly the same value as the original. So the crossover point gets nudged a little, and/or the shape of the filter curve changes a little. But they seem to have fun...

 

[fpitas]

What's fun, but rather mean, is to ask them whether any magic capacitor or Litz wire coil will actually improve the sound. When they grudgingly admit they cannot, one asks why they don't go active and eliminate all the troublesome parts.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

What's fun, but rather mean, is to ask them whether any magic capacitor or Litz wire coil will actually improve the sound. When they grudgingly admit they cannot, one asks why they don't go active and eliminate all the troublesome parts.

Oh the sad part is, that many will tell you that of course the sound had indeed improved and even the wife in the kitchen and the dog on the sofa could hear it.

And left aside the outright liars, they really perceived it that way as their expectation bias tricked them into hearing it after they plugged in the new Mundorf cap made from unobtanium during the new moon.

Edit. Btw. I still have quite a few Mundorf’s collecting dust in my cabinets.

 

[fpitas]

Oh the sad part is, that many will tell you that of course the sound had indeed improved and even the wife in the kitchen and the dog on the sofa could hear it.

And left aside the outright liars, they really perceived it that way as their expectation bias tricked them into hearing it after they plugged in the new Mundorf cap made from unobtanium during the new moon.

After paying that much, I'd be tempted to lie to myself.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

After paying that much, I'd be tempted to lie to myself.

… and to the wife

 

[kongwee]

With regards to capacitors - if real world caps were ideal the discussion about upgrading crossover components would be largely "moot". So, a bit of research on ESR - equivalent series resistance - yields some data worth considering.
From Murata the chart below compares ESR's of various types of caps - 10 uf @ 25 volts. The link for the complete read is -

https://article.murata.com/en-us/article/impedance-esr-frequency-characteristics-in-capacitors


View attachment 231968

OEM's like to save money and electrolytic caps are cost effective. The above example shows significant ESR - not to be confused with Z - dotted line shows close to 10 ohms in the audio band. If you were to use this aluminum electrolytic in a crossover you would take that value into consideration during design and testing. "Upgrading" it to a film capacitor would totally "fuck up" your crossover design if you did not add resistance to compensate. This is most likely what happens in some cases when folks throw in these "recommended " upgrades. I am not saying this is always the case - it would depend on the characteristics of the original parts. I am saying - without specific example proof - that some of these reported "improvements" are in possibly inadvertent crossover design changes. Once you do that it is no longer an apple to apple comparison. On the other hand if you compensated - added series resistance in this case - would it sound different than the original? Probably not.

Certainly you do not need resistance in your cap. Of course all cap have internal resistance. In crossover design, it is better to let the resistor to do resistive part of the crossover. So it is not good to have high resistance in your cap as it will affect actual impedance value of the crossover. Beside film has more precise value than electrolytic. https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/ss/technical/b3
"
Film Capacitors
Film capacitors, which use a plastic film as their dielectric, have the following features.

• Non polar
• Excellent high frequency characteristics (low ESR)
• Excellent temperature characteristics (small rate of change in capacitance due to temperature)
• Compatible with highly accurate capacitance
• Long life

Although film capacitors have lower heat resistance compared to ceramic capacitors, they have additional features such as excellent temperature characteristics and compatibility with highly accurate capacitance. Furthermore, film capacitors have no issues with DC bias characteristics, squealing, or cracks due to temperature or mechanical impact. With these advantages, film capacitors can achieve a higher performance than ceramic capacitors. However, film capacitors have disadvantages such as their large size and high price and are therefore used in voltage/capacity ranges that cannot be covered by ceramic capacitors and for high performance and high accuracy applications.
"
The only disadvantage is that it is big. Only can be seem in power amp output stage or speaker crossover.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

While listening to live un-amplified music - orchestra - I could hear some instrument placement left to right but very little if any depth of field. Yet, on stereo systems some rooms and some recordings have provided depth of imaging in my experience.

Exactly. Our systems present something that is often sort of exaggerated and artificial rendering, with more precise and distributed sound objects, a sound that never exist in a live setting.

 

[Thomas_A]

Distance perception has some cues e.g. Direct to Reflected sound ratio and HF attenuation. These can de decoded in the recording but are also factors of speakers.

 

[tuga]

Exactly. Our systems present something that is often sort of exaggerated and artificial rendering, with more precise and distributed sound objects, a sound that never exist in a live setting.

A studio mix is the audio equivalent of a collage or composite image:

 

[Wowarning]

A studio mix is the audio equivalent of a collage or composite image:

A picture or painting is a good metaphor for the way I'm looking at the levels/depth relationship. When something is smaller in the background your brain interprets it as being farther away than the larger thing in the foreground, but you wouldn't actually point to a place behind the picture and say "I see it there."

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Again: what does this prove? Many people believe homeopathy works, but that doesn't make it true...

Homeopathy worked for me! After years going to the Doctor with severe back pain and being prescribed drugs to dull the pain over and over. Went to see a chiropractor he sent me for an X-ray the day after he showed what the problem was, six visits for treatment followed by 30 years pain free.
Back on topic a while back someone posted you can only get the theatre experience at home using 5.1 surround sound. Two points!
1. Many years ago the owner of Wharfedale think it was Gilbert Briggs held an orchestral concert, during the concert the musicians stopped playing, in reality they never stopped as they hadn’t been playing and the music continued.
2. When it comes to surround sound Sony destroyed that illusion finally driving a nail into the coffin of 4 channel surround sound.
Going to a concert generally the musicians are seated in front not all around the listener.

 

[kthulhutu]

A studio mix is the audio equivalent of a collage or composite image:

This is the best analogy I've seen, especially as a parallel between stereoscopy and stereophony.

 

[Matthias McCready]

When recording, there is only panning and placement of tracks across the soundstage left and right. There is no front and rear, or up and down.

Frequency

Pulling out the upper-mids or high-frequencies on a source will make it seem further away. High-frequency air loss is a real world acoustic phenomenon, the farther away you are from a source the less top-end you will experience, which is quite dependent on the combination of temperature and humidity.

As a mix engineer I like to try and think of things in a 3D space, yes I have left and right, but how forward is something in the mix? Does every source sound like it is in the same acoustic space? How foward do I want something to feel? EQ and gain have a lot to do with that, and masking from other sources can sometimes take away from this.

 

[Gregm]

Frequency

Pulling out the upper-mids or high-frequencies on a source will make it seem further away. High-frequency air loss is a real world acoustic phenomenon, the farther away you are from a source the less top-end you will experience, which is quite dependent on the combination of temperature and humidity.

As a mix engineer I like to try and think of things in a 3D space, yes I have left and right, but how forward is something in the mix? Does every source sound like it is in the same acoustic space? How foward do I want something to feel? EQ and gain have a lot to do with that, and masking from other sources can sometimes take away from this.

Added to that, during playback you can pull out the speakers into the room thereby creating the illusion of a phantom 3D-ish image behind them. Presumably some of the depth has to be incorporated in the file to begin with...

 

[goat76]

Added to that, during playback you can pull out the speakers into the room thereby creating the illusion of a phantom 3D-ish image behind them. Presumably some of the depth has to be incorporated in the file to begin with...

By pulling our speakers away further from the wall, do you mean that creates a visual trick that fools our minds into thinking the recordings have more depth than they really have?

If so, I fully agree that visual clues can affect our judgment of what we hear. If we would place a painting on the wall with a fully convincing optical three-dimensional illusion, let's say an extension of our listening room behind our speakers, the same effect of added depth to the recordings would probably occur in a similar way.

But...
That kind of mind trick shouldn't have a "real" effect on what we actually hear, the depth we hear from the recordings is purely a stereo illusion created by the sounds "beamed" directly from the speakers to our ears, and got nothing to do with the actual distance to the back wall. The phantom image simply never takes place at the spot where we hear it coming from, it's just an illusion that takes place in our minds.

Sorry if that last paragraph of the text is obvious to everyone.

 

[Peluvius]

I have often used this disc from Chesky to calibrate, fiddle with and test various aspects of my systems:

The introduction to this Imaging and Soundstaging section preamble states (among many other things) that given a "Natural, good quality recording" a good recording will reproduce "width, depth and height" of the original performance.

I can hear all of these characteristics reproduced in this track when the system and room are working properly (to a greater or lesser extent depending on the gear and the room).

The CD is not widely available, I was trying to find some way to share the track but no luck I am sorry.

 

[Duke]

... the depth we hear from the recordings is purely a stereo illusion created by the sounds "beamed" directly from the speakers to our ears, and got nothing to do with the actual distance to the back wall.

Ime the distance to the back wall DOES have an effect on perceived soundstage depth.

The ear/brain system judges the perceived dimensions of an acoustic space primarily by three sets of information: The FIRST reflections; the reverberant tails; and the temporal center-of-gravity of the reflections.

When the speakers are pulled out from the wall, the first reflections in that dimension are pushed back in time and become a bit weaker, both of which indicate to the ear/brain system greater distance in that direction. The temporal center-of-gravity is also pushed back in time a little bit, which is indicative of a larger acoustic space.

The influence of distance from the wall on soundstage depth varies with the specifics, and presumably varies somewhat from one individual to the next.

The playback room's "small room signature" cues are most strongly conveyed by the first reflections, specifically their arrival times (relative to the direct sound) and arrival directions. Good loudspeaker/room interaction, usually enabled by professional attention to room acoustics, can weaken those "small room signature" cues to the extent that the venue cues on the recording become perceptually dominant, which (depending on the recording) can result in a great deal of soundstage depth.

 

[Thomas_A]

I am not sure about front wall reflections add anything other than confusion cues to the reflections recorded from the auditory scene. The natural reflections that is part of the listening lounge all come from side walls, floor and ceiling. Having speakers close to a wall with damping behind gives to me a better illusion of what is going on at the scene.