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Should hard drugs be decriminalized and then supply pharmaceutical grade drugs to users.

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mansr

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Crack cocaine is like truth serum. It makes some people babble and go on about stuff. Could be a security risk I think.
In that case barring its use by people with certain jobs would seem reasonable.

More generally, restricting the use of legal substances where there is enough of a security risk is probably justifiable. Illegal drugs should obviously never be used by anyone with access to classified material as this could be used to blackmail them.

I would be against a blanket ban on "drugs" for no particular reason.
 

SIY

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In that case barring its use by people with certain jobs would seem reasonable.

More generally, restricting the use of legal substances where there is enough of a security risk is probably justifiable. Illegal drugs should obviously never be used by anyone with access to classified material as this could be used to blackmail them.

I would be against a blanket ban on "drugs" for no particular reason.
Criminalizing and making it a disqualification enables blackmail.
 

mansr

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Criminalizing and making it a disqualification enables blackmail.
Any criminal activity is potential blackmail material. Even if the employer doesn't care about the crime as such, the person in question might want to avoid going to jail.
 

SIY

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Any criminal activity is potential blackmail material. Even if the employer doesn't care about the crime as such, the person in question might want to avoid going to jail.
One more argument for legalization.
 
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Doodski

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Reading you guys' commentary made me think. I understand that Germany has very set in place beliefs about drinking responsibly. I think that systematic societal habituation would be the way to proceed with use of decriminalized hard drugs. The people that can't manage their basic domestic affairs and are users probably won't care and they'll continue with their social disorder but the majority would be onboard. Cannabis use in Canada from what I read has not resulted in a increase of impaired driving charges and that is indicative of responsible use.
 

Sal1950

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Crack cocaine is like truth serum. It makes some people babble and go on about stuff.
I've experienced the same thing from boozers for 71 years
Here's the deal, whatever the intoxicant, show up for work sober and it's none of the employers business what they do on the time off.
If there's a problem or addiction, it will reveal itself fairly quickly. The employer should then have the option of some sobriety test or whatever just like when driving your car.
 
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Doodski

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Here's the deal, whatever the intoxicant, show up for work sober and it's none of the employers business what they do on the time off.
Yes I strongly agree.
I attended a physical examination and drug test for a job assembling the electrical systems of chemical trailers used for fracking.
I passed the test, got the job but I was secretly against the test. This was before prohibition of cannabis ended and I was not smoking cannabis at the time. Freeeedommmmmmm!!!! lol :D
 

SIY

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I've experienced the same thing from boozers for 71 years
Never enjoyed being around drunks or very stoned people. It's annoying and boring. Moderation is cool, I've had some delightful conversations when folks are mildly buzzed, but when they get to the vowel phase, I'm outta there.
 

preload

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Thank you for the chart!

I cannot find a reference concerning increasing dosage dependence for heroin addiction. Please help me with that.

It's well understood that opioids, including heroin, exhibit tolerance, which means higher and higher doses are required to achieve the same effect. You won't find a pretty chart because it's not something you could readily study (i.e. Ask heroin abusers "hey, how many mg of illegal drug did you inject today?). But the tolerance effect is well established. You can easily verify this by using "tolerance" as one of your search terms.
 

Blumlein 88

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Experiments on rats heroin tolerance. No humans were harmed in this experimentation.
 

TLEDDY

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It's well understood that opioids, including heroin, exhibit tolerance,
You are verifiably correct as to tolerance...what is missing in the studies is the conclusion that tolerance will inevitably lead to overdose. There are a plethora of studies (I found over a dozen using your “tolerance” search term) addressing tolerance, I could find none supporting the trajectory to overdose and death.

Obviously, I am giving your hypothesis that ultimately tolerance leads to overdose and death full credence; that I have not found such a report is the reason I am asking you (or anyone else) to provide such.
 

Sal1950

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It's well understood that opioids, including heroin, exhibit tolerance, which means higher and higher doses are required to achieve the same effect.
Just like booze, so what's your point. I don't get why it keeps being repeated?
 

Mart68

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The problem with street heroin is that purity varies wildly so what was enough one day is not enough on another day, and vice-versa.

Without any knowledge of the purity it's not difficult to overdose.

There are cases of doctors being addicted to morphine for decades, they don't overdose because they know exactly what dose they are giving themselves.
 

Frank Dernie

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The problem with street heroin is that purity varies wildly so what was enough one day is not enough on another day, and vice-versa.

Without any knowledge of the purity it's not difficult to overdose.

There are cases of doctors being addicted to morphine for decades, they don't overdose because they know exactly what dose they are giving themselves.
Yes, one of the strongest reasons for legalising is dose control.
 

preload

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Just like booze, so what's your point. I don't get why it keeps being repeated?
Right, alcohol also exhibits similar properties of tolerance and escalating "doses." BTW, nobody here is suggesting that alcohol-related death is not also a major societal health problem. It's not "either/or."
You are verifiably correct as to tolerance...what is missing in the studies is the conclusion that tolerance will inevitably lead to overdose. There are a plethora of studies (I found over a dozen using your “tolerance” search term) addressing tolerance, I could find none supporting the trajectory to overdose and death.

Obviously, I am giving your hypothesis that ultimately tolerance leads to overdose and death full credence; that I have not found such a report is the reason I am asking you (or anyone else) to provide such.
Thanks. Since you seem to be interested in exploring this, it's actually a little more complicated.

Like other opioids (and similar to alcohol, as Sal1950 points out), tolerance leads to escalating heroin doses. But tolerance to the euphoric effects develops sooner than tolerance to the respiratory depressant effects. At these higher doses, when the abuser then happens to concurrently consume other drugs (like alcohol, benzodiazepines, etc.) that are also respiratory depressants, the result is additive/synergistic respiratory depression, which can become a life-threatening or fatal event. This is why when heroin "overdose" deaths are examined, it is common to see polypharmacy on the toxicology, along with the heroin "blood levels" that are not elevated beyond the elevation expected by a chronic heroin user.

In other words, it's not the heroin itself causing the overdose, but rather the baseline respiratory depression caused by the higher doses of heroin (a result of tolerance and the abuser's need to maintain the same level of euphoria), which creates a situation where adding alcohol, benzodiazepines, etc. can result in death.

As mentioned, you can't directly study how heroin abusers eventually die because of issues of ethics (you can't just watch someone die in the name of science!) and issues of access (heroin abusers don't like to be followed around by people where lab coats). That and if you follow the money, who will fund such a study? (certainly not big pharma, which likely caused the opioid epidemic in the first place)
 
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preload

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The problem with street heroin is that purity varies wildly so what was enough one day is not enough on another day, and vice-versa.

Without any knowledge of the purity it's not difficult to overdose.

There are cases of doctors being addicted to morphine for decades, they don't overdose because they know exactly what dose they are giving themselves.
This is a common myth, so I'd like to address it.

Doctors die of opioid overdose too. A medical degree does not make someone immune to the same physiologic effects experienced as other human beings. And as everyone knows, physicians would have access to pure medical-grade drugs at precise doses.

In one study, sadly 18% of anesthesiologists with a substance abuse disorder were only discovered after they had died from overdose. And these are professionals who know exactly how much opioid to administer to a patient.

The death rate of anesthesiologists from drug overdose is about 2.5 per 10,000 each year (for younger physicians).
 

TLEDDY

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In one study, sadly 18% of anesthesiologists with a substance abuse disorder were only discovered after they had died from overdose. And these are professionals who know exactly how much opioid to administer to a patient.

The death rate of anesthesiologists from drug overdose is about 2.5 per 10,000 each year (for younger physicians).
I am afraid I am being difficult. Please cite the studies above mentioned so I can review them. You have the advantage of knowing the cites since you make reference.

Thanks
 

preload

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I am afraid I am being difficult. Please cite the studies above mentioned so I can review them. You have the advantage of knowing the cites since you make reference.

Thanks
No, I'm not going to do that. It's not worth my time, and you're clearly starting from a very different level of understanding on this topic. If individuals do not understand that opioids are highly addictive and have a tolerance effect that results in escalating dose requirements, I question whether they have the basic background to have such strong opinions on how to address the #1 cause of death for Americans under the age of 50. Reading the misinformation in this thread is like going to head-fi and trying to explain blind listening testing to a "trust your ears" crowd.

And yes, the statistics I quoted about physician overdose deaths are easily verifiable by doing a 30 second google search and opening the journal articles they are derived from.
 
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