Sent my Koetsu Black to VAS to be repaired. Chose it over a new cart or new DAC, and am confident in my choice.

[drewdawg999]

VAS Inc. in NJ seems to do great work, and trustworthy to send my precious Koetsu Black for microsurgery. Much less waiting time than Soundsmith, and less red tape to cut through. Chose to do this over buying a new cart, budget wasn't too high so had my eye on an Audio Technica AT33PTG/2. Good looking cart with nice specs, but still at roughly the same price as a full repair of a Koetsu, I say my choice was easy. 500 bucks is entry level for LOMC carts. Koetsu is not entry level, not even the cheapest one.

Was also considering a Topping D30 Pro, to directly connect by XLR to my new balanced amp, the March Audio P502 (great amp!). Nixed that idea though, as I found I preferred the sound of my current DAC (SMSL Sanskrit 10th mkII) going through my tube preamp (Rogue Metis), over going straight into the amp and using the DAC as a preamp. It was just a little edgy and lifeless, though very detailed. Through the tube preamp, there's just more of a live sound, better soundstage, and overall smoother and more pleasing. Also I'm finding with the new resolution powers of the new amp, that there isn't really much dropoff in detail from digital to vinyl, perhaps just a touch.

I did many shootouts between vinyl and DSD over the last few days, and though often very close, I end up preferring the vinyl almost all of the time. Better presence, bigger image and soundstage, more alive, more of a delicate touch, without loss of detail. This is on a hot-rodded Rega P3 with a Clearaudio Maestro v2, versus the SMSL DAC or my DAP, a Surfans F20 (very nice sound out of the dedicated line out!). Not exactly a fair fight I guess dollars wise, but measurements wise even the cheap DAC is supposed to come out on top. It doesn't though, not for me. Only albums where I preferred the DSD was Blind Faith, Hotel California, and Pretzel Logic. My copies of these albums on vinyl are not in great shape. Any small group jazz involving horns and pianos, the choice goes easily to the vinyl. Just sounds more realistic. Saxophones sound big and sonorous, not shrill and kazoo-like. Pianos are big and grand and solid, not tinny and small like on digital.

Measurements don't favor vinyl at all, yet I prefer it. I guess it's something to do with vibrations and resonances. The vibration of a great transducer somehow does it for me, as opposed to bit perfect digital performance. Strings vibrate, as do reeds, and sound waves in general. Doesn't matter how old the tech is, my analogue rig is performing very well. More than well actually. More like kicking ass and taking names. So I can't wait to get my baby back, the Koetsu Black, one of the most precious components I have in my system. Get it back in action on my Michell Gyro SE, in good as new condition, and have that rig kick much ass. I feel no need to invest further in my digital setup, as diminishing returns has kicked in at the $120 mark (cost of DAP). I think I prefer my DAP over my DAC, smoother presentation, less edge. I'm not chasing hyper detail here, as that does not translate into a realistic audio illusion for me. I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way here.

 

[restorer-john]

What matters is what makes you happy. If that's your precious vinyl and the great rig you have, that's brilliant. More power to you.

Nobody can tell you what is right and wrong in relation to your musical enjoyment. Hope the Koetsu performs as well as you expect after the work.

 

[solderdude]

Measurements don't favor vinyl at all, yet I prefer it.

In the end its all about personal music enjoyment. When vinyl brings you more enjoyment then that's fine.

I guess it's something to do with vibrations and resonances.

My best guess would be that your preference has more to do with factors like changes in sound due to the mastering/cutting process, interaction between your cartridge, cable and pre-amp impedance/capacitance and RIAA correction than resonances. Resonances will be there of course are not related to strings and reeds which all have their own resonances outside of the range the Koetsu will 'resonate'.

The vibration of a great transducer somehow does it for me, as opposed to bit perfect digital performance. Strings vibrate, as do reeds, and sound waves in general. Doesn't matter how old the tech is, my analogue rig is performing very well. More than well actually. More like kicking ass and taking names. So I can't wait to get my baby back, the Koetsu Black, one of the most precious components I have in my system. Get it back in action on my Michell Gyro SE, in good as new condition, and have that rig kick much ass. I feel no need to invest further in my digital setup, as diminishing returns has kicked in at the $120 mark (cost of DAP).

I am with restorer John and hope the Koetsu will once again not disappoint when returned.

I think I prefer my DAP over my DAC, smoother presentation, less edge. I'm not chasing hyper detail here, as that does not translate into a realistic audio illusion for me. I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way here.

I prefer my (about equally expensive/performance) FiiO X3 (original) and X3-II over my PC setup as well but don't tell anyone as I am not a SINAD chaser and good is good enough for me.

Didn't know about the F20. Seems like a nice looking alternative for the older FiiO DAPs.

 

[Sombreuil]

The way I EQ my headphones would be a nightmare for 99% of the population, yet I enjoy it.
In the end, music isn't what's the most transparent or correct, if anything it's quite common to add some distortion on purpose during the mix.

 

[drewdawg999]

What matters is what makes you happy. If that's your precious vinyl and the great rig you have, that's brilliant. More power to you.

Nobody can tell you what is right and wrong in relation to your musical enjoyment. Hope the Koetsu performs as well as you expect after the work.

Thanks John! I guess I'm with Richard Roma here... you know all train compartments smell vaguely of shit. (Just watched Glengarry again for maybe the 30th time... so marvelous.)

 

[restorer-john]

Just watched Glengarry again for maybe the 30th time... so marvelous.

Incredible cast of actors at their collective peaks.

Can't pick a favourite scene, line, or character- they are all so good.

 

[drewdawg999]

In the end its all about personal music enjoyment. When vinyl brings you more enjoyment then that's fine.

And do I ever enjoy it! It's my favorite, my personal bundle of joy. I trust my ears very much. Graphs are nice to get an idea of things, but they have to be backed up by listening.

I am with restorer John and hope the Koetsu will once again not disappoint when returned.

Thanks so much for your well wishes! I trust Steven Leung and his surgical skills. The VPI guy trusted his megabuck carts to him, though they happen to be neighbors as well.

I prefer my (about equally expensive/performance) FiiO X3 (original) and X3-II over my PC setup as well but don't tell anyone as I am not a SINAD chaser and good is good enough for me.

Didn't know about the F20. Seems like a nice looking alternative for the older FiiO DAPs.

The F20 is a great little unit, nice inexpensive way to get DSD playing in your big system. Shocks me how good it sounds, great bang for the buck. Plus, it has a click wheel. Don't worry, your secret is safe with me... SINAD schminad I say, beyond the limits of human hearing. I was gonna go Purifi Eval1 originally based on SINAD, but this 502 is outstanding, I'm super happy with it.

 

[drewdawg999]

The way I EQ my headphones would be a nightmare for 99% of the population, yet I enjoy it.
In the end, music isn't what's the most transparent or correct, if anything it's quite common to add some distortion on purpose during the mix.

Yes to each his own. I believe that music is mostly subjective, really really tough to make it totally objective as this forum at times tries to make it. What makes for good music is extremely subjective, so it only follows that how to enjoy it be that way too. So we all have opinions and in my book, they all count for something. Been trying to be more objective lately, but I love what I love and make no apologies for it. I like euphonic distortions, view it as a kind of natural dithering, thus I love my system with tubes and vinyl.

 

[EJ3]

And do I ever enjoy it! It's my favorite, my personal bundle of joy. I trust my ears very much. Graphs are nice to get an idea of things, but they have to be backed up by listening.


Thanks so much for your well wishes! I trust Steven Leung and his surgical skills. The VPI guy trusted his megabuck carts to him, though they happen to be neighbors as well.


The F20 is a great little unit, nice inexpensive way to get DSD playing in your big system. Shocks me how good it sounds, great bang for the buck. Plus, it has a click wheel. Don't worry, your secret is safe with me... SINAD schminad I say, beyond the limits of human hearing. I was gonna go Purifi Eval1 originally based on SINAD, but this 502 is outstanding, I'm super happy with it.

Glad to now know about the F20. For me SINAD & flat are reference points. From there, it is: what it sounds like in my home. Then I adjust to taste (as with cooking). I go to many live music events from chamber music to rock concerts. So I have good ideas of what I want it to sound like. And when it's good enough for me, that is all that matters. My wife only worries about 'if it doesn't sound terrible & is it convenient?'. If it meets those 2 criteria, it's fine. At home (a house on a 1/2 acre of land), it is usually just us, so it truly only matters to us (at least at the levels I listen to).

 

[phoenixdogfan]

VAS Inc. in NJ seems to do great work, and trustworthy to send my precious Koetsu Black for microsurgery. Much less waiting time than Soundsmith, and less red tape to cut through. Chose to do this over buying a new cart, budget wasn't too high so had my eye on an Audio Technica AT33PTG/2. Good looking cart with nice specs, but still at roughly the same price as a full repair of a Koetsu, I say my choice was easy. 500 bucks is entry level for LOMC carts. Koetsu is not entry level, not even the cheapest one.

Was also considering a Topping D30 Pro, to directly connect by XLR to my new balanced amp, the March Audio P502 (great amp!). Nixed that idea though, as I found I preferred the sound of my current DAC (SMSL Sanskrit 10th mkII) going through my tube preamp (Rogue Metis), over going straight into the amp and using the DAC as a preamp. It was just a little edgy and lifeless, though very detailed. Through the tube preamp, there's just more of a live sound, better soundstage, and overall smoother and more pleasing. Also I'm finding with the new resolution powers of the new amp, that there isn't really much dropoff in detail from digital to vinyl, perhaps just a touch.

I did many shootouts between vinyl and DSD over the last few days, and though often very close, I end up preferring the vinyl almost all of the time. Better presence, bigger image and soundstage, more alive, more of a delicate touch, without loss of detail. This is on a hot-rodded Rega P3 with a Clearaudio Maestro v2, versus the SMSL DAC or my DAP, a Surfans F20 (very nice sound out of the dedicated line out!). Not exactly a fair fight I guess dollars wise, but measurements wise even the cheap DAC is supposed to come out on top. It doesn't though, not for me. Only albums where I preferred the DSD was Blind Faith, Hotel California, and Pretzel Logic. My copies of these albums on vinyl are not in great shape. Any small group jazz involving horns and pianos, the choice goes easily to the vinyl. Just sounds more realistic. Saxophones sound big and sonorous, not shrill and kazoo-like. Pianos are big and grand and solid, not tinny and small like on digital.

Measurements don't favor vinyl at all, yet I prefer it. I guess it's something to do with vibrations and resonances. The vibration of a great transducer somehow does it for me, as opposed to bit perfect digital performance. Strings vibrate, as do reeds, and sound waves in general. Doesn't matter how old the tech is, my analogue rig is performing very well. More than well actually. More like kicking ass and taking names. So I can't wait to get my baby back, the Koetsu Black, one of the most precious components I have in my system. Get it back in action on my Michell Gyro SE, in good as new condition, and have that rig kick much ass. I feel no need to invest further in my digital setup, as diminishing returns has kicked in at the $120 mark (cost of DAP). I think I prefer my DAP over my DAC, smoother presentation, less edge. I'm not chasing hyper detail here, as that does not translate into a realistic audio illusion for me. I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way here.

You have a wonderful vinyl system. My last vinyl system was a VPI HW19 Mk IV with a Fidelity Research FR64S tonearm with B60 Stabiliser and a Cardas Heart Ruby Phono Cart, sitting on a Vibraplane and feeding into an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A with Gold John Curl designed phono section. I really enjoyed it from the mid 90's until the mid 2000's. Around that time I bought a Benchmark DAC 1 and began to compare that $800 playback system with the nearly $20k vinyl playback system and was profoundly surprised: I found in playing CD's and vinyl versions of the same recording that the CD's actually seem less colored. CDs just became my go to more and more, and things like digital room correction and streaming just persuaded me to let go of the vinyl. Just my choice, understand others perceive it differently.

But, in any case, great vinyl system still sounds as good as it ever has which is very good indeed, and you certainly do have a great one. The Koetsu is an absolute classic cartridge, probably even superior to my old Cardas Heart, so here's hoping it comes back from its hospital stay sounding as good as ever. I know I fretted every time I sent one of my coils out to be retipped and restored, so best of luck with that.

 

[drewdawg999]

You have a wonderful vinyl system. My last vinyl system was a VPI HW19 Mk IV with a Fidelity Research FR64S tonearm with B60 Stabiliser and a Cardas Heart Ruby Phono Cart, sitting on a Vibraplane and feeding into an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A with Gold John Curl designed phono section. I really enjoyed it from the mid 90's until the mid 2000's. Around that time I bought a Benchmark DAC 1 and began to compare that $800 playback system with the nearly $20k vinyl playback system and was profoundly surprised: I found in playing CD's and vinyl versions of the same recording that the CD's actually seem less colored. CDs just became my go to more and more, and things like digital room correction and streaming just persuaded me to let go of the vinyl. Just my choice, understand others perceive it differently.

But, in any case, great vinyl system still sounds as good as it ever has which is very good indeed, and you certainly do have a great one. The Koetsu is an absolute classic cartridge, probably even superior to my old Cardas Heart, so here's hoping it comes back from its hospital stay sounding as good as ever. I know I fretted every time I sent one of my coils out to be retipped and restored, so best of luck with that.

Thanks so much for the well wishes. Yeah I've invested so much more in my analogue than my digital so it's not really a fair fight. I've heard that even megabuck digital setups still aren't convincing for saxophones and pianos though. I'm thinking an R2R DAC is probably what I want, perhaps a Denafrips, don't need all that detail but something smooth and non-fatiguing. But I made my choice, can't afford it all. I'm surprisingly content with my little Surfans F20 DAP. But I also got my mammoth CD player working again, an Esound CD-E5 Signature, one of the best CD players to ever come out of China. It sounds great with tremendous bass drive, a big upgrade over my Sony ES changer. So I've revived my rather large CD collection, which was sounding rather dull and lifeless out of the Sony.

Lucked out on the Koetsu many years ago, took a chance on ebay and it paid off big time. No idea on the cart's history but I'm guessing it was never used, seeing as I must have put a couple thousand hours on it. Really snuck up on me when it died, I must have been in denial, some kind of mental block, I just couldn't imagine being without my beloved Koetsu. But I have confidence in VAS, they seem to have a good reputation. It's been a month and I'm still in the queue, but I guess it's a good sign, that good work is in demand and requires patience. Om. Lucky for me I have two tables so I don't have to go without vinyl, but I can't wait for my system to be complete again. The combo of Michell Gyro SE and Koetsu Black, into a Musical Surroundings Phonomena really sings, and I'm starting to miss it badly.

 

[Angsty]

Thanks so much for the well wishes. Yeah I've invested so much more in my analogue than my digital so it's not really a fair fight. I've heard that even megabuck digital setups still aren't convincing for saxophones and pianos though. I'm thinking an R2R DAC is probably what I want, perhaps a Denafrips, don't need all that detail but something smooth and non-fatiguing. But I made my choice, can't afford it all. I'm surprisingly content with my little Surfans F20 DAP. But I also got my mammoth CD player working again, an Esound CD-E5 Signature, one of the best CD players to ever come out of China. It sounds great with tremendous bass drive, a big upgrade over my Sony ES changer. So I've revived my rather large CD collection, which was sounding rather dull and lifeless out of the Sony.

Lucked out on the Koetsu many years ago, took a chance on ebay and it paid off big time. No idea on the cart's history but I'm guessing it was never used, seeing as I must have put a couple thousand hours on it. Really snuck up on me when it died, I must have been in denial, some kind of mental block, I just couldn't imagine being without my beloved Koetsu. But I have confidence in VAS, they seem to have a good reputation. It's been a month and I'm still in the queue, but I guess it's a good sign, that good work is in demand and requires patience. Om. Lucky for me I have two tables so I don't have to go without vinyl, but I can't wait for my system to be complete again. The combo of Michell Gyro SE and Koetsu Black, into a Musical Surroundings Phonomena really sings, and I'm starting to miss it badly.

My experience with VAS in 2020 was highly satisfactory with a repair of my Hana SL. I recommend Steve Leung enthusiastically.

My experience with a CD changers (NAD and Sony non-ES) is that they had older embedded DACs that have lower SINAD than the >100dB that is quite common now at low price points. Linearity is also much better with newer DACs. My Schitt Modi 3 was a big improvement for my 15+ year old NAD changer. My new Integra CD changer sounds indistinguishable from my external DACs on both of my systems.

Remember that CDs have an inherent S/N ratio limit of 96 db without dither, and maybe up to 110dB with dither in mastering. A Modi 3+ or 3E at around $100 can hit 111 dB SINAD. Not many integrated amps or preamp/power amp combinations exceed 96dB S/N ratio. They are likely to add more noise or distortion coloration than the DAC will by a large factor. Digital filters can make a bit more measured difference if the filter is not flat across the full frequency range, but those audible differences are often tiny at best and hard to replicate with blind testing.

 

[Godataloss]

My experience with VAS in 2020 was highly satisfactory with a repair of my Hana SL. I recommend Steve Lueng enthusiastically.

I'm eyeing the Hana SL. I just upped my vinyl game a bit with a second hand VPI Prime Scout Signature and a Fosgate Signature phono. I had a Ortofon 2m Black on my old table and really enjoyed the detail of the Shibata. I want to try the moving coil world and the Hana SL seems like a relatively low risk option. You must have really liked it to have it retipped. What did it cost if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Angsty]

I'm eyeing the Hana SL. I just upped my vinyl game a bit with a second hand VPI Prime Scout Signature and a Fosgate Signature phono. I had a Ortofon 2m Black on my old table and really enjoyed the detail of the Shibata. I want to try the moving coil world and the Hana SL seems like a relatively low risk option. You must have really liked it to have it retipped. What did it cost if you don't mind my asking?

The re-tip was $235 in August 2020. Was re-tipped with a line contact instead of a Shibata which had no impact on its enjoyability.

 

[drewdawg999]

I'm excited now as I just got word that my cartridge's hospital stay is over. The procedure went well, needed to straighten out the suspension (avoiding a rebuild) and a re-tip with a new line contact stylus. VAS sent me a video showing them testing it out, and things sound great! (The record was a female vocal cover of I've Got A Name by Jim Croce, very nice!) The wait was long, they were backed up, services in high demand, but otherwise it was a pleasure dealing with them. My precious is coming home and I can't wait!

 

[MattHooper]

Cool.

I've never heard of VAS inc.

When my Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge finally wore out I strongly considered sending it to Soundsmith. Even talked to them about it. In the end, since Benz Micro had a trade in policy that substantially reduced the price of a new one, I just got the same cartridge as a replacement. That was good by me as I was so happy with the sound of the first one.

Someone I know just got their cartridge redone by Soundsmith and I'm told they are incredibly happy, that it sounds better than ever.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Loathecliff]

Tis the first day of summer time in Lisbon, and I've awoken to near heresy on ASR !

 

[drewdawg999]

Cool.

I've never heard of VAS inc.

When my Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge finally wore out I strongly considered sending it to Soundsmith. Even talked to them about it. In the end, since Benz Micro had a trade in policy that substantially reduced the price of a new one, I just got the same cartridge as a replacement. That was good by me as I was so happy with the sound of the first one.

Someone I know just got their cartridge redone by Soundsmith and I'm told they are incredibly happy, that it sounds better than ever.

Let us know how it goes.

Thought about sending it to Soundsmith as well, but they're backed up even worse, like 5 months or more. They got hit bad with COVID and shut down for a month, I believe Peter Ledermann got it twice and was seriously ill for a while (doing better now). There's also no guarantees that he personally works on the cartridge, which is what I would want, I think he just does final QC. I don't think they listen to it before they ship it back either. They also push for replacing the whole cantilever assembly, and I believe their boron cantilevers are thicker than original Koetsu's, thus affecting the sound. You can request a re-tip only but it's not any cheaper since it takes longer. Also need to jump through some hoops on their website before you can send in your cartridge. Don't mean to badmouth, I personally don't have any experience with them. They have plenty of good publicity, but it's more of a big production line.

VAS is a small operation, and you know that Steve Leung, THE MAN, works on your cartridge. They build their own cartridges as well, the VAS Nova has some acclaim. They also have refurbished and upgraded Denon 103R's which seemed like an interesting option. But I wanted my precious Koetsu back, with the lush midrange, and everything voiced just how I like it. Will update when I get it back and set it up, when the Michell Gyro SE sings again.

 

[drewdawg999]

Tis the first day of summer time in Lisbon, and I've awoken to near heresy on ASR !

What, you mean all the vinyl love? Hey you can love science and turntables too, they're not mutually exclusive . VAS stands for Vinyl Audio Science, and I'm a believer in their technical prowess. Cartridges are drop dead sexy!

 

[Angsty]

Steve at VAS did a great job re-tipping my Hana SL in 2020. I highly recommend him.