Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)

[KeithPhantom]

Based on objective measurements - $1400 dollars for garbage FR, lots of bass distortion and equaled if not bested by a much cheaper model. If these were speakers they would be nearly universally criticized. Why do headphones get a pass?

Their distortion measurements are quite nice, to say the least, and this is by comparing multiple other sources as well. Bass distortion is something all transducers other than dedicated subwoofers are going to have since it shows the limit of the excursion of a driver, and lower frequencies require more of this excursion, making parasite vibrations more prominent and increasing distortion. A headphone is a full-range small earspeaker, and for it to do everything that a speaker system has the advantage of specialization by having multiple drivers, it does damn good.

 

[srsxmi]

I dislike reviewing of headphones just about as I expected to on ASR. That field isn't on firm ground scientifically the way loudspeaker design is.

So much extra money for less accurate response needing EQ, but better subjective layering so recommended. Sounds more like something on SBAF than what belongs here. I think such continued reviewing will undermine what is otherwise the strong basis for so much reviewing of other gear on ASR. You'll end up having to use the same iffy practices to get a practical headphone review as is done elsewhere, but they don't limit it to headphones, rather having iffy practices for all gear. And people will be inclined to disbelief the best part of ASR when it suits them, because the site's owner does so himself on headphones.

Good point. I understand it, but disagree with it. Amir said this was new territory and acknowledged the inherent inaccuracy and lack of firm scientific footing, but thought it would benefit the readership (ASR Getting into Measuring HPs)

Since there is so much subjectivity surrounding headphones, one cannot make a technically sound choice because of the hype and/or the cost of auditioning them (esp. thanks to COVID). This "journey" has been ridiculously expensive and anything that will provide a more reliable return for the cost is a bonus.

I have enjoyed the reviews to date because they provide useful information about headphones that I own or am interested in and that information includes optimal equalization from a trained listener. I do see that providing eq's "pollutes" the review space a bit, but it is valuable - perhaps another thread on the topic for the hp's reviewed would resolve that.

I believe that Amir will reach scientific terra firma, as he noted in his first post and with the readers' help he already has achieved something unique on the internet that ultimately will challenge the likes of Stax, Audeze, Sennheiser, etc. to be more honest about their gear much like the ASR reviews have attracted DAC, DAP, Amplifier, and audio gear manufacturers and designers.

My gear and my listening enjoyment have improved immeasurably due to this site, Amir and the readership. Now, I read more and spend less. My wallet and my ears thank everyone.

 

[Cahudson42]

Time to stir the pot! How about 'next up' - planar magnetics. Maybe a HFM Arya vs. a cheapo Deva (wired) /HE 5XX. Or Sundara..Pick one single-sided magnets, one double-sided.. Are there differences? Is there a God?

 

[FrantzM]

Time to stir the pot! How about 'next up' - planar magnetics. Maybe a HFM Arya vs. a cheapo Deva (wired) /HE 5XX. Or Sundara..Pick one single-sided magnets, one double-sided.. Are there differences? Is there a God?

+1

 

[Dreyfus]

In relation to the "soundstage" topic,
rtings.com says that the perceived spaciousness depends on:

- FR matching to the (HATS') HRTF between 2 kHz and 7 kHz
- notch around 10 kHz
- openness of the design
- acoustic space excitation

Comparing the data of the HD 650 and HD 800S we can say that:

- the HD 650 is closer to the Harman target - which mimics an in-room HRTF based on a neutral set of speakers - when measured with a 45CA
- both share a notch around 10 kHz
- both are pretty open ("leaky") designs

Now, altough the data we have speaks more in favor of the 650, the 800S is commonly accepted to be much more spacious and less susceptible to an in-head localization. This leads me to the conclusion that either the target must be inappropriate (which is rather unlikely given the past research) or that the measurement rig and procedure is unable to simulate and capture all the relevant interactions that occur at the listeners ear drum.

I would be interested in how well the HD 650 performs when closely matched to the HD 800S and vice versa. That could tell how important the features of the FR can be when we want to evaluate "abstract" attributes such as resolution, soundstage or imaging. That said, you would probably need the actual DRP response that has to be varified using a probe mic. Otherwise there will always be the systemic uncertainty of the generic ear simulator ...

My assessment would be that it is not only the sheer FR of the left and right driver interacting with the pinna and ear canal but also the nature of the cross feed between both ears which adds interaual time and level information. Those features are frequency depended of course and vary with the design of the ear cup - which is pretty complex for the HD 800S compared to that of the HD 6** series.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Don’t bother. The HD800 will fry your ears off with treble. HD600 and HD650 are the best sounding Senn’s—well, except for the HD1 which at $60,000 I have not heard, nor have many other people, I imagine. HD700 was good but for some reason it has been discontinued. There is a new HD660 which could be good. But the HD800 series? No thank you.

Is there an advantage to trying the HD600 or HD650 if I already have a pair of HD800s? What is the quantifiable difference? Thanks!

 

[MZKM]

Another request was for measurement export. AP software is different so not sure what all to export. Here is the frequency response measurements:

Let me know if you want something different.

Can you export the Harman target curve?

 

[Weeb Labs]

I dislike reviewing of headphones just about as I expected to on ASR. That field isn't on firm ground scientifically the way loudspeaker design is.

So much extra money for less accurate response needing EQ, but better subjective layering so recommended. Sounds more like something on SBAF than what belongs here. I think such continued reviewing will undermine what is otherwise the strong basis for so much reviewing of other gear on ASR. You'll end up having to use the same iffy practices to get a practical headphone review as is done elsewhere, but they don't limit it to headphones, rather having iffy practices for all gear. And people will be inclined to disbelief the best part of ASR when it suits them, because the site's owner does so himself on headphones.

Agreed. At the very least, it would be nice to see impulse, step and EGD data for a more complete picture. Perhaps some square waves, too.

 

[Blake Klondike]

I don't at all like the idea, in loudspeakers but especially in headphones, of recommendations based on listening through EQ.

For loudspeakers I can see some semblance of justification. Loudspeakers don't move, and even if most "audiophile" gear is obsolete dross (no or primitive bass management; no room correction) at least speakers are fixed in place and DSP (built into modern equipment, or as an external component) is readily available.

For headphones there is, however, no reasonable justification. I don't think headphones should get a free pass on the necessary condition of pleasing tonal balance, unless the tools to improve it are included in the package.

The primary reason is the headphone amp market is in a state of complete and total failure. Almost universally, the products offered are sonically inferior to a 20 year-old HeadRoom device, There is more SINAD or whatever (BFD after a fairly low level of attainment) but no actually useful innovation in the form of modern processing (PEQ, crossfeed or more advanced room simulation) or the required UI. MiniDSP HA-1's had promise, but ended up a failure because they pulled iDevice compatibility at the last minute. So it ended up being unusable with the devices people actually use with their headphones. Nobody else seems to have even tried to make a useful headphone amp.

Furthermore, software EQ is simply not an acceptable ersatz. I guess there are a few people who prefer to listen to headphones at home. But the bulk of users will use them on the go, or in offices connected to locked-down computers. There is no opportunity to EQ them in such cases, due to the aforementioned market failure in headphone amps. So bottom line a pair of headphones with poor tonality (and no included corrective tools) are bad headphones, regardless of price, brand, etc.

This is really interesting-- I have a Headroom The Max, with crossfeed and compensatory processing features. Not sure I have been able to hear a difference with the crossfeed on. What does it do/what should it sound like? Thanks!

 

[LightninBoy]

Their distortion measurements are quite nice, to say the least, and this is by comparing multiple other sources as well. Bass distortion is something all transducers other than dedicated subwoofers are going to have since it shows the limit of the excursion of a driver, and lower frequencies require more of this excursion, making parasite vibrations more prominent and increasing distortion. A headphone is a full-range small earspeaker, and for it to do everything that a speaker system has the advantage of specialization by having multiple drivers, it does damn good.

The distortion measurements are quite mediocre for headphones. The $400 HD650 actually measure slightly better. So what exactly is one getting for an extra $1000? It looks like $1k buys a boost at 5k and all the associated "detail" that comes with it. To me, that looks like a showroom gimmick and if these were speakers that would be a nearly universal opinion on this forum. Not sure why headphones aren't judged the same, particularly headphones that cost $1400.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

View attachment 99391

I have a 800s. curious that how is improved
by your eq setting. is there anyway I can just download and load your eq? what is your eq software? I tried parametric eq as a software name, but get nothing similar....

On Windows search for EqualizerAPO and PeaceGUI. The latter provides a simpler interface, the former the actual EQ.

Besides amir's settings, oratory1990's settings are always worth a try, and he has ones for the HD800 and a lot of other headphones at https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets

For even wider support and an automated approach to get EQ settings from measurements, take a look at https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

On Android there is Wavelet, an EQ app that allow accessing all the EQ settings that AutoEQ generates.

 

[Harmonie]

Sorry for my naive question maybe; but
what is the logic of Sennheiser's R&D and launch HP that measure and maybe sound wrong without EQ ?

 

[maverickronin]

Sorry for my naive question maybe; but
what is the logic of Sennheiser's R&D and launch HP that measure and maybe sound wrong without EQ ?

Because a lot of people like it. It's a huge success that's popular for more than decade now and more or less kicked off the new wave of non-Stax headphones selling for 4 figure or more.

IMO 99+% of headphones need EQ anyway.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

In the real world, people read the bold text and ignore the caveats.



Please explain how someone is going to EQ headphones while listening to Tidal (or local files) on a locked down work computer, or their work or personal iDevice, connected to a headphone amp (ie how real people actually use expensive open headphones in the real world). Unfortunately, largely because current headphone amps are specs rich but thought poor, that is not possible.

There are at least a couple of mobile headphone DAC/amps that include EQ (Qudelix 5K, MiniDSP HA-DSP & IL-DSP). You can connect via USB, and in the case of the Qudelix also via Bluetooth. I combine a Quedlix with a Fiio A5 for some recordings and listening situations - works from my locked down work Windows machine, not locked down work Linux machine, private PCs and my phone.

 

[Harmonie]

Because a lot of people like it. It's a huge success that's popular for more than decade now and more or less kicked off the new wave of non-Stax headphones selling for 4 figure or more.

IMO 99+% of headphones need EQ anyway.

Thanks.
The HD800 is rather expensive and I could suppose that its owner would somehow have interest in EQ.
But how many "consumers" out there have no clue and listen to HD580, 600, 650 (and other brands, and "99% of HP) just as they are, without EQ ?
The world is strange; definitively.

 

[maverickronin]

Thanks.
The HD800 is rather expensive and I could suppose that its owner would somehow have interest in EQ.
But how many "consumers" out there have no clue and listen to HD580, 600, 650 (and other brands, and "99% of HP) just as they are, without EQ ?
The world is strange; definitively.

The other thing about the HD800 is its massive soundtage which comes from the size of its drivers and their angle from the ear. Even if one can/won't EQ, they may value that quality more and prefer it to the HD650 which naturally has a more neutral frequency response, but a very closed in soundstage

You can't make an HD650 sound like an 800 with just EQ either. You'd need full impulse response convolution with in ear measurements of both the HD650 and HD800 on you own head and that can be an awful lot of hassle.

 

[restorer-john]

Someone also asked about impedance measurements. These are done elsewhere and I have to build yet another fixture to measure it. With low impedance headphone amplifiers being so common now, I don't see the need to do this measurement. We know the nominal impedance as published. But if there are strong feelings about it, I will build the fixture to test.

I do think the impedance vs frequency is valuable. It puts to bed all those "these headphones are difficult to drive" statements. What voltage does the Klippel rig use for the speaker impedance sweeps? If it's only around a few volts, you could use that.

 

[the_brunx]

Sorry for my naive question maybe; but
what is the logic of Sennheiser's R&D and launch HP that measure and maybe sound wrong without EQ ?

I think Sennheisers are preferred overwhelmingly by older people who care more about calarity of voices and of acoustical instruments. they normally hate boosted bass for some reason. and they got the money for the toys so Sennheiser mostly tunes their audiophile headphones for that market. but with EQ they are the best headphones in the world even for younger bass-heads IMO. and I like all the little details about sennheisers like designing ear shaped comfortable headphones, and also they always have braille dots for blind people etc. I don't like that they never use leather but its for their animal rights whatever stance they say. but overall to me it shows just the amount care they take. and that's not to mention their leading sound engineering and their reputation to last for decades. I wish everyone else would be on that level of professionalism.

 

[Billy Budapest]

The other thing about the HD800 is its massive soundtage which comes from the size of its drivers and their angle from the ear. Even if one can/won't EQ, they may value that quality more and prefer it to the HD650 which naturally has a more neutral frequency response, but a very closed in soundstage

You can't make an HD650 sound like an 800 with just EQ either. You'd need full impulse response convolution with in ear measurements of both the HD650 and HD800 on you own head and that can be an awful lot of hassle.

I think the HD800 sounds like shite. It has a grating treble that can be headache-inducing. It was not designed to be a neutral-sound headphone, that’s for sure. Maybe it was designed to suit the tastes of individuals with high frequency hearing loss? I’m dead serious as 85% of people over the age of 40 have some sort of hearing loss, usually affecting frequencies over 16kHz.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I think Sennheisers are preferred by mostly older people. they normally hate boosted bass for some reason. and they got the money for the toys so Sennheiser mostly tunes their audiophile headphones for that market. but with EQ they are the best headphones in the world even for younger bass-heads IMO. and I like all the little details about sennheisers like designing ear shaped comfortable headphones, and also they always have braille dots for blind people etc. I don't like that they never use leather but its for their animal rights whatever stance they say. but overall to me it shows just the amount care they take. and that's not to mention the great sound engineering. I wish everyone else would be on that level of professionalism.

Yes! This is what I am getting at! Although I am almost 50 and dislike the HD800.