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Science of healthy eating

Frank Dernie

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My wife spends hours every day doing “research” and “learning a lot” on the internet. She is a musician and not very scientifically minded and, it seems to me, pretty easily convinced by the most recent theory she has investigated. I find it somewhat exasperating.
Anyway she became a convinced fan of a keto diet and insisted on trying it. I am retired and do the shopping and cookingasn’t going to make 2 different meals. We both lost weight, I lost 8kg, but I actually didn’t enjoy the diet enough to keep it up.
I cook smaller portions now and my weight is not too bad for my height so I have gone back to a more varied diet.
I am 68 and never expected to get this old, my Dad died at 53 and my grandfather at 63. OTOH my maternal grandmother was born in 1898 and died in 1999 having almost made it into her 3rd century. Her father was born in 1826 so he was 73 when she was born (!) and went on to have 4 more children he had 3 wives.
Maybe I have dominant genes from my maternal side. I hope so.
I have a mixed diet but mainly concentrate on eating food I enjoy...
 
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hvbias

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The burden of proof is on the proponent of the hypothesis. In this case, the prevailing medical opinion from PCP Docs is that LDL is the bad guy and we need to get it down as low as possible because that’s what causes heart disease. That’s a hypothesis and is falsifiable. Correlational data, like the data cited in the paper, can never be used to affirmatively prove a hypothesis. However, correlational data can be a counterfactual to the proponet’s hypothesis. That’s all the authors are attempting to do. There’s plenty of data showing that folks with high LDL can be even healthier than those with low LDL. This is consistent in different populations depending on the diet. That’s a pretty big fly in ointment for the high LDL=CVD folks.

I don’t believe heart disease, like cancer, has one simple cause. And I think those who do hold this belief should be willing to examine their assumptions more carefully before prescribing statins. Statins are certainly overprescribed in the U.S. Statins do have negative side effects and don’t improve mortality rates in those who have never had heart disease. To me, that’s the only endpoint that matters.

I understand how a scientific study is conducted :) It doesn't mean every one is any good just because they followed protocol. This meta analysis would not make it into the NEJM or BMJ.
 
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WoodyLuvr

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I understand how a scientific study is conducted :) It doesn't mean every one is any good just because they followed protocol. This meta analysis would not make it into the NEJM or BMJ.
Exactly what my now very elder triple doctorate (M.D/V.M.D) father constantly likes to say about 99% of nutritional science journalism published. "A lot of crock sometimes based on a single person's miss attributed diet success."

He has royally pissed off a few of the professional nutritionists and weight loss successes that we have in our rather large and extended family (which he likes to refer all to as "foodies") with some beautiful but rather crass and politically incorrect statements such as "Nothing worse than a foodie or former fatty handing out blanket healthy eating advice" or "do you know how to piss off a food pusher (aka foodie)? Just tell 'em that eating healthy is simply eating normally and moderately". "Diets are like fads... thank goodness we lost bell bottoms, wide collars, and perms".

He sometimes is truly awful but there is wisdom hidden in those statements of his! Lucky these foodies are never too offended as they are never his immediate focus and usually and quickly escape his wrath... we have two psychiatrists in our family which he refuses to suffer no matter our level of begging! And boy do they ever do get it! Funny thing he actually knowingly fully paid for one of their educations and the other was given a home... go figure!

Lucky his senior age (late 80s now), soft spoken tone, witty and very educated personality, astoundingly frequent financial generosity, and huge cheshire cat smile have spared him countless times from being throttled by many of these family members who seem to routinely trigger his rather sensitive BS radar.
 
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Sal1950

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thank goodness we lost bell bottoms
Yea, I hate bell bottoms. Back around 1973 I was riding a 1949 Harley Panhead with an open primary chain housing.
Standing next to the bike while it was running, I was doing some carb adjustments when the bottom of one pant leg blew into the chain. I felt this big jerk and when I looked down I was standing in the middle of the street stark naked! Had a bunch of the neighborhood kids standing around watching the kool Harley being tuned and then laughing their ass off at me standing there butt hanging out naked.
That was the end of bell bottoms for me, and open primaries. LOL
God's honest true story. :eek::p
 
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hvbias

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Exactly what my now very elder triple doctorate (M.D/V.M.D) father constantly likes to say about 99% of nutritional science journalism published. "A lot of crock sometimes based on a single person's miss attributed diet success."

He has royally pissed off a few of the professional nutritionists and weight loss successes that we have in our rather large and extended family (which he likes to refer all to as "foodies") with some beautiful but rather crass and politically incorrect statements such as "Nothing worse than a foodie or former fatty handing out blanket healthy eating advice" or "do you know how to piss off a food pusher (aka foodie)? Just tell 'em that eating healthy is simply eating normally and moderately". "Diets are like fads... thank goodness we lost bell bottoms, wide collars, and perms".

He sometimes is truly awful but there is wisdom hidden in those statements of his! Lucky these foodies are never too offended as they are never his immediate focus and usually and quickly escape his wrath... we have two psychiatrists in our family which he refuses to suffer no matter our level of begging! And boy do they ever do get it! Funny thing he actually knowingly fully paid for one of their educations and the other was given a home... go figure!

Lucky his senior age (late 80s now), soft spoken tone, witty and very educated personality, astoundingly frequent financial generosity, and huge cheshire cat smile have spared him countless times from being throttled by many of these family members who seem to routinely trigger his rather sensitive BS radar.

I don't hold the same strong sentiment, one of my favorite non-fiction/non-medical books like Warren Buffet is How To Win Friends And Influence People :)

I have no issue with what people chose to do on their own (I am going to go out on a limb and say that dallasjustice didn't come to looking that handsome just on a meat heavy diet, but is leading a very active lifestyle as well), I do want to be fairly rigorous when it comes to presenting information in a scientific manner.

Most of the psyhiatrists I know (admittedly not that many) stick to UpToDate guidelines fairly well, but the human noggin' is a hell of a thing and when you're prescribing drugs that create these big changes in neurotransmitter balances, sometimes all you can do is try different things that works for your patient. I could never be one. I love the sheer accuracy and precision I can apply in my field with my knowledge/experience.
 
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hvbias

hvbias

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The part you didn't underline ;) pregnant women, lactating, and three groups of children. All these are groups categorized as positive nitrogen balance (digging way back to med school here I think that is arginine, histidine and a couple of others), their requirements are different from healthy men/women. Like I said early in the thread I wouldn't advocate a pure vegan diet.

Also look at what they do advocate eating with that high amount of starch/grains (wholesome non-vegan diet column), frankly a bit surprised this was published in 2016.
 

dallasjustice

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Like I said early in the thread I wouldn't advocate a pure vegan diet.
Why not?

What type of diet do you recommend to cancer patients? I assume you are an oncologist. Read this:
Immunogenic cell death for optimal anticancer chemotherapy. Our group invalidated the dogma that apoptosis is a non-immunogenic cell death modality. We demonstrated that, depending on the upstream triggers, apoptosis can be immunogenic and hence alert the innate immune system and instruct it to stimulate a cognate response against dead-cell antigens. This has opened a new field of research at the frontier between immunology and cell biology, allowing us to define the molecular properties of immunogenic cell death (ICD). We found that ICD is characterized by autocrine stimulation of type 1 interferon (IFN) receptors, the pre-apoptotic exposure of calreticulin (CRT) on the cell surface, release of ATP during the blebbing phase of apoptosis, and post-apoptotic exodus of annexin A1 (ANXA1) and the chromatin-binding protein high mobility group B1 (HMGB1). Type 1 interferon secretion depends on the stimulation of TLR3, CRT exposure on an endoplasmic reticulum stress response, ATP release on pre-mortem autophagy, and annexin A1/HMGB1 exodus on secondary necrosis. CRT, ATP, ANXA1 and HMGB1 interact with four receptors (CD91 receptor, purinergic P2Y2 or P2X7 receptors, formyl peptide receptor-1 [FPR1], and toll-like receptor 4 [TLR4], respectively) that are present on the surface of dendritic cells or their precursors. CD91, P2Y2, FPR1, P2RX7 and TLR4 promote engulfment of dying cells, attraction of dendritic cells, juxtaposition of dendritic and dying cells, production of interleukin-1β and presentation of tumor antigens, respectively. Local induction of endoplasmic reticulum stress in the tumor bed and systemic induction of autophagy increase anticancer immune responses. We have launched and then proven the hypothesis that the immune response against dying tumor cells dictates the therapeutic success of anticancer chemotherapy, both in mouse models and in cancer patients. Obviously, this discovery has had major consequences for the comprehension, conception and implementation of anticancer chemotherapies. Indeed, we postulate that, at least in certain cases, both classical and targeted anticancer therapies require an active contribution of the immune system to be optimally efficient. We obtained clinical evidence that this hypothesis holds true for anthracycline-treated breast cancer, oxaliplatin-treated colorectal cancer, and imatinib-treated gastrointestinal stromal tumors, among others.

This is from Dr. Kroemer’s webiste. He’s a noted cancer researcher who has done a lot of work with various “fasting mimetic” or “calorie restriction mimetic” compounds in the treatment of cancer. (hydroxycitrate (inhibits ATP citrate lyase), spermidine (inhibits Ep300, a protein acetyltransferase), and resveratrol (activates deacetylases).
http://www.kroemerlab.com/index.php/science/discoveries

I’m sure you know about how ketogenic diets or fasting can improve chemotherapy long term success. What are your thoughts on the emerging science in the field of metabolic oncology?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0343-4
 
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hvbias

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Why not?

What type of diet do you recommend to cancer patients? I assume you are an oncologist. Read this:


This is from Dr. Kroemer’s webiste. He’s a noted cancer researcher who has done a lot of work with various “fasting mimetic” or “calorie restriction mimetic” compounds in the treatment of cancer. (hydroxycitrate (inhibits ATP citrate lyase), spermidine (inhibits Ep300, a protein acetyltransferase), and resveratrol (activates deacetylases).
http://www.kroemerlab.com/index.php/science/discoveries

I’m sure you know about how ketogenic diets or fasting can improve chemotherapy long term success. What are your thoughts on the emerging science in the field of metabolic oncology?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0343-4

I'm not an oncologist, I would be involved in multidisciplinary care of primarily cancer patients. I'd rather not say more than that since people have used my first name on the Hoffman forums associated with this screenname and I'd like to maintain some anonymity, as my field is quite specialized, and I'm in a small state.

The thread was about people trying to avoid future medical events, IMO a chemotherapy patient would be much more advanced than the scope I was thinking of when starting this thread, I was thinking more along the lines of heart/vessel disease. I will read both of those articles and weigh in.

In that regard are we not in agreement about pure vegan diets being questionable?
 

Wombat

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One can find 'experts' on the WWW to support any view, especially if unqualified, taken out of context or statements 'cherry-picked' to suit. As a lawyer you are well aware of that(I hope). Stick to legal precedents and your area of professional expertise. Your biological and medical expertise is lacking, as is your judgement, if you wish to recommend your(one-off) dietary experiment to others. In fact it may be downright dangerous.
 
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dallasjustice

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Here’s a controlled feeding study recently published by Harvard Endocrinologist Dr. Ludwig. There are 3 isocaloric groups (even accounts for thermic effect). There’s a run-in period for each group. Each group’s caloric intake is measured using double-labeled water. This is the most accurate measurement for caloric expenditure. The conclusion is that high fat/low carb diet produces much more energy expenditure than the control groups. This is yet more evidence in support of the insulin/carb model for obesity. IOW, “calories in/calories out” is not a complete explanation for weight loss and is not helpful advice to those who want to get healthy. https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4583

DEAD5137-667D-4644-A143-3DE9083B9164.jpeg
 
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LarsS

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It is also very important to exercise on a regular basis. High intensity interval training with lots of compound movements is the most effective and efficient type of exercise. IMO, using repetitive motion machines in the gym is ineffective.

Couldn't agree more, I beleive exercise is even more important then healthy food. Been doing mountainbiking and indoor cycling for more then 10 years.

Six months ago I started with Crosstraining 3-4 times a week, realized I needed to be stronger to improve my mountainbiking, keeping muscle mass and generally improving my well being. I'm extremely happy with the outcome, so is my spouse ... ;-).


Did a health check a week ago, considering my age the improvement since my last checkup a year ago is not bad at all. Mostly due to my new crosstraining.

1545573353434.png
 

dallasjustice

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Couldn't agree more, I beleive exercise is even more important then healthy food. Been doing mountainbiking and indoor cycling for more then 10 years.

Six months ago I started with Crosstraining 3-4 times a week, realized I needed to be stronger to improve my mountainbiking, keeping muscle mass and generally improving my well being. I'm extremely happy with the outcome, so is my spouse ... ;-).


Did a health check a week ago, considering my age the improvement since my last checkup a year ago is not bad at all. Mostly due to my new crosstraining.

View attachment 19269
That looks like a good workout. Everything new in the area of fitness in the U.S. is based on group fitness. I think it’s a very positive trend. Crossfit gets a lot of criticism (some deserved), but I believe it was the primary driver for the new, small High Intensity Training class model seen in all the new fitness gyms in the U.S. Each one appeals to a different customer, but the fitness instruction and efficiencies are superior to the old model in the U.S.
 

andreasmaaan

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