S.M.S.L SU-9n issue

[archerious]

But you would think that the SU-9N is 98% identical to the SU-9. I happened to return my SU-9N only because I decided to get a Gustard X18, but that's probably victim to the same issues.

To be honest the Gustard x16 only had a DSD issue. It never had anything like what the SU-9N is doing. I don't really see the X18 or really most DACs behaving the same way but time will tell.

 

[REK2575]

I have the impression that the Gustard DACs are generally of higher build / reliability quality than some of the other Chinese brands we're discussing (SMSL, Topping, etc.). I don't know if that's because their products are usually more expensive than those other brands. But I feel like I see fewer complaints about issues with Gustard (the X16 issue alluded to in this thread excepted). If I'm completely off base about that, I'd love to know!

I'm frankly terrified of my Su-9n failing along the lines of archerious's and tej's -- i.e., failing and doing damage to the rest of my system. I'm probably going to send it back while I still can. It feels like the warranty on these things is worthless -- return within 30 days or just accept it if the thing dies soon afterward. The headache of dealing with Shenzhen or Apos etc. is just not worth it.

 

[tiramisu]

There is a global chip supply issue. In the pressure to ship "good enough," decisions can turn out to be customer service issues later.
Topping isn't using this as an opportunity to show leadership in a way that Americans expect from a small tech firm.

I'm not going to rush to buy the PA5 but I'm also not taking the E50 or D10 Balanced off my shopping list either.

I'd love to hear from Topping that the fault in the PA5 has been identified and resolved by fixing ABC because it measures very well but there are plenty of amps out there to choose from.

 

[REK2575]

I'd love to hear from Topping that the fault in the PA5 has been identified and resolved by fixing ABC because it measures very well but there are plenty of amps out there to choose from.

And this is precisely the problem when it comes to Topping, SMSL, etc.: It seems like the devices are designed simply to measure well. I do not have any confidence that they are designed or built to last. They crank out these products, ASR gives a glowing review, and a few months later, a newer version gets released -- and too bad if the earlier versions still have problems, we've moved on. It frankly starts to feel like a bit of a scam. A lot of the Chinese DACs reviewed by ASR aren't even available for purchase anymore, because the brands have already released newer (often more expensive) versions of the same. Good luck finding a new Gustard A18 for example. Amir reviewed in October 2020, measured great, decent price. But Gustard has since cranked out the X16, the X18, the X26 pro, etc. etc.....

 

[archerious]

And this is precisely the problem when it comes to Topping, SMSL, etc.: It seems like the devices are designed simply to measure well. I do not have any confidence that they are designed or built to last. They crank out these products, ASR gives a glowing review, and a few months later, a newer version gets released -- and too bad if the earlier versions still have problems, we've moved on. It frankly starts to feel like a bit of a scam. A lot of the Chinese DACs reviewed by ASR aren't even available for purchase anymore, because the brands have already released newer (often more expensive) versions of the same. Good luck finding a new Gustard A18 for example. Amir reviewed in October 2020, measured great, decent price. But Gustard has since cranked out the X16, the X18, the X26 pro, etc. etc.....

I feel the same. I was looking back and realized a lot of my inexpensive DACs didn't last.

My SMSL Sanskrit 10th MkII had a ground loop issue within six months then eventually started randomly turning itself off.

I had a Topping D10 Balanced that I returned due to issues with the screen not lighting up randomly.

So honestly the long term reliability is questionable.

I understand these chifi products are usually significantly cheaper than the US/EU counterparts but if I add up the cost from replacing the DACs annually it probably ends up similar.

Strongly debating on just buying a RME DAC for $999 on sale to get something that actually holds up. I don't use DSD much anymore so frankly Schiit Modius is another much cheaper option that's made in USA.

 

[norcalscott]

But you would think that the SU-9N is 98% identical to the SU-9. I happened to return my SU-9N only because I decided to get a Gustard X18, but that's probably victim to the same issues.

Good point, I have not compared a tear down of them. I do suspect there have been some component changes and definitely firmware changes (and I believe the 9N can be firmware upgradeable which probably points to other component changes), but you are right, the SU-9 and SU-9N certainly appear to be very close to one another.

 

[5mall5nail5]

I feel the same. I was looking back and realized a lot of my inexpensive DACs didn't last.

My SMSL Sanskrit 10th MkII had a ground loop issue within six months then eventually started randomly turning itself off.

I had a Topping D10 Balanced that I returned due to issues with the screen not lighting up randomly.

So honestly the long term reliability is questionable.

I understand these chifi products are usually significantly cheaper than the US/EU counterparts but if I add up the cost from replacing the DACs annually it probably ends up similar.

Strongly debating on just buying a RME DAC for $999 on sale to get something that actually holds up. I don't use DSD much anymore so frankly Schiit Modius is another much cheaper option that's made in USA.

Shameless plug but I have a Schiit Modius I just listed in the classifieds today

 

[archerious]

Shameless plug but I have a Schiit Modius I just listed in the classifieds today

I PM'd, definitely interested. Thank for your mentioning, it would be a good replacement for the SU-9N.

 

[REK2575]

Strongly debating on just buying a RME DAC for $999 on sale to get something that actually holds up. I don't use DSD much anymore so frankly Schiit Modius is another much cheaper option that's made in USA.

I've been thinking about these options as well. Obviously the RME ain't cheap, but I'm willing to pay for reliability (and protection for the rest of my audio equipment!).

Amir's never-ending flood of reviews for Topping, SMSL etc. products is starting to rub me the wrong away. Yet another unreservedly glowing review Monday for the Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC, that ends, "There is nothing whatsoever that I can remotely criticize." Nothing to remotely criticize. Music to Topping's ears, I have no doubt. Will the thing last you more than a few months? Who cares!

 

[Doodski]

Amir's never-ending flood of reviews for Topping, SMSL etc. products is starting to rub me the wrong away. Yet another unreservedly glowing review Monday for the Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC, that ends, "There is nothing whatsoever that I can remotely criticize." Nothing to remotely criticize. Music to Topping's ears, I have no doubt. Will the thing last you more than a few months? Who cares!

I understand your reservations about some product that has a less than stellar warranty service period and poor customer service. I for one am going to buy USA product in the near future for this reason but @amirm's test results and intention is not to long term torture test product but to measure them. If there are issues with product as has been the case then that information is freely available in the commentary. It's not in the cards for @amirm to advise about reliability, customer service and warranty terms.

 

[tiramisu]

Amir is very careful to stick with measurements and nothing but measurements. I like that. I can understand why some people can find it confusing. The word Review was probably a poor initial choice of words back when the site started. These are measurements with a bit of personal listening opinion. Build Quality, Supply chain, warranty, customer services, color, and style are all out of the scope. Most "Reviews" are just glorified advertisements shilling the product. AudioScience Reviews are a statement of audio quality at the time of the test for the unit that was tested with the testing hardware used. No one else provides that simple unvarnished information. I personally buy Chinesium regularly. I am well aware of shipping delays, and potential Quality control issues. I also know how to use google translate. That said I do like a couple of the small American manufacturers specifically. JDS, Schiit, not because they are American but because I love their products and business models. All of that falls outside of Topping Reviews on Audio Science. Topping boxes measure extremely well.

 

[archerious]

Amir is very careful to stick with measurements and nothing but measurements. I like that. I can understand why some people can find it confusing. The word Review was probably a poor initial choice of words back when the site started. These are measurements with a bit of personal listening opinion. Build Quality, Supply chain, warranty, customer services, color, and style are all out of the scope. Most "Reviews" are just glorified advertisements shilling the product. AudioScience Reviews are a statement of audio quality at the time of the test for the unit that was tested with the testing hardware used. No one else provides that simple unvarnished information. I personally buy Chinesium regularly. I am well aware of shipping delays, and potential Quality control issues. I also know how to use google translate. That said I do like a couple of the small American manufacturers specifically. JDS, Schiit, not because they are American but because I love their products and business models. All of that falls outside of Topping Reviews on Audio Science. Topping boxes measure extremely well.

Schiit and JdsLabs are solid, I still respect Schiit in particular for paying to fix people's headphones when their Asgard was killing them. In comparison I recall the L30 was a really rough situation for some people as Topping refused to repair anyone's headphones that were damaged.

Benchmark, JDSLabs, Schiit, and RME are known for good customer service.

The closest to good customer service from Chifi stores/distributors I've seen is Aoshida-Hifi as they reply really fast on Amazon and frankly have great return policies via prime.

Moondrop and Gustard are also quite solid. Moondrop in particular went out of their way to help me return a pair of Variations a while back that were uncomfortable for my ears. Usually manufacturers are quick to dismiss but they actually helped me get hifigo support to actually respond lol.

Cayin is another brand that has been solid for me.

I think most of my negative experiences with chifi have been SMSL and Topping.

 

[REK2575]

@Doodski @tiramisu I agree with many of the points you make. (I also appreciate the even-handedness with which you make them!) I understand that Amir does not test for durability/reliability. I think what bothers me, however, is how 'recommendation' is being doled out in ASR. Generally, when you recommend a product to a friend, reliability is implicitly part of the recommendation. I suspect @archerious would not recommend the SU-9N to a friend based on his experience, no matter how great it sounded while it worked. (However archerious I don't mean to speak for you, so correct me if I am wrong.) At least, I would certainly not recommend this DAC to a friend if I had had their experience.

So, granted, Amir does not and will not take reliability into account in his reviews. But doesn't it feel like his reviews are being a bit naive (if not a bit disingenuous) about all these recommendations in the context of the veritable flood of Topping, SMSL, Loxjie, Sabaj, Gustard etc. Chinese hi-fi products that ASR rushes to review? I see no acknowledgment of this -- no questioning of why Amir reviews dozens of Topping etc. products for every RME or Schiit that comes along. "That's because Topping produces many more products than an RME does." YES, right! I count 47 reviews [EDIT, about 35-40] of Topping products on the Master Review Index. Just how many DACs or combo DACs does one company need to produce? (Yes, I know not all are DACs; many however are.) Doesn't the breakneck rate of Topping's new product output raise any concerns or suspicions about quality?

None of that is taken into account by Amir. It's just, "NEW Topping product! Highly recommended by ASR!" rinse and repeat. At some point, this starts to feel deceptive, or at least, naive. Caveat emptor, of course. It's on the buyer to make informed choices about purchases. Yes, indeed. But the only message I get from ASR re:Topping et al. is 'amazing products, highly recommended.' Just keep them coming.

 

[archerious]

@Doodski @tiramisu I agree with many of the points you make. (I also appreciate the even-handedness with which you make them!) I understand that Amir does not test for durability/reliability. I think what bothers me, however, is how 'recommendation' is being doled out in ASR. Generally, when you recommend a product to a friend, reliability is implicitly part of the recommendation. I suspect @archerious would not recommend the SU-9N to a friend based on his experience, no matter how great it sounded while it worked. (However archerious I don't mean to speak for you, so correct me if I am wrong.) At least, I would certainly not recommend this DAC to a friend if I had had their experience.

So, granted, Amir does not and will not take reliability into account in his reviews. But doesn't it feel like his reviews are being a bit naive (if not a bit disingenuous) about all these recommendations in the context of the veritable flood of Topping, SMSL, Loxjie, Sabaj, Gustard etc. Chinese hi-fi products that ASR rushes to review? I see no acknowledgment of this -- no questioning of why Amir reviews dozens of Topping etc. products for every RME or Schiit that comes along. "That's because Topping produces many more products than an RME does." YES, right! I count 47 reviews of Topping products on the Master Review Index. Just how many DACs or combo DACs does one company need to produce? (Yes, I know not all 47 are DACs; many however are.) Doesn't the breakneck rate of Topping's new product output raise any concerns or suspicions about quality?

None of that is taken into account by Amir. It's just, "NEW Topping product! Highly recommended by ASR!" rinse and repeat. At some point, this starts to feel deceptive, or at least, naive. Caveat emptor, of course. It's on the buyer to make informed choices about purchases. Yes, indeed. But the only message I get from ASR re:Topping et al. is 'amazing products, highly recommended.' Just keep them coming.

I completely agree about not recommending the SU-9N or Sanskrit 10th MkII.

To be honest I think I won't be recommending SMSL or Topping to any of my friends because of the issues I've had with them and poor customer service.

 

[Doodski]

Topping produces many more products than an RME does." YES, right! I count 47 reviews of Topping products on the Master Review Index. Just how many DACs or combo DACs does one company need to produce? (Yes, I know not all 47 are DACs; many however are.) Doesn't the breakneck rate of Topping's new product output raise any concerns or suspicions about quality?

... and many more than Schiit or JDS Labs too. RME, JDS Labs and Schiit tend to keep models for a couple of years+ it seems to me. Superior 2 year warranty and excellent customer service are the order of the day there. When products have a fast turnover rate I have always been skeptical but after 9 years of selling home audio gear and 15 more years of servicing it I grew accustomed to seeing a turnover every ~12 months. New technology, standards and styles come with each turnover and people expect that. So it's a 6 of one and half dozen of the other situation. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think the recent breakdowns are unignorable and the service has sucked for sure and so I'm on board with that. In fact I purchased a JDS Labs DAC+ today and intend on purchasing a Schiit headphone amp soon too and so I'm on board with the better service providers. The situation is what it is unfortunately. Just vote for product with your money and where you spend it.

 

[5mall5nail5]

I agree that Schiit is at least responsive. I am not sure if the service is great as some have claimed, but responsive, in any capacity, sure beats non-responsive.

I like the styling of Schiit. I don't really like the snark or the "we don't do that because we're above it" -- I get it, but I have spent about $2,000 on a couple DACs and would gladly buy a Schiit based on the US-made principle if they'd simply support DSD and higher bitrate stuff... because it's 2022. I know it's not for everyone, but if I am to pay $700 - $2200 for a DAC I'd really like to be able to play my handful of DSD albums through it.

 

[archerious]

I agree that Schiit is at least responsive. I am not sure if the service is great as some have claimed, but responsive, in any capacity, sure beats non-responsive.

I like the styling of Schiit. I don't really like the snark or the "we don't do that because we're above it" -- I get it, but I have spent about $2,000 on a couple DACs and would gladly buy a Schiit based on the US-made principle if they'd simply support DSD and higher bitrate stuff... because it's 2022. I know it's not for everyone, but if I am to pay $700 - $2200 for a DAC I'd really like to be able to play my handful of DSD albums through it.

I wouldn't buy their expensive models. The modius measures the best of their lineup and costs less than $250.

The main reason I didn't use them before was the lack of a preamp.

I use a NC252 for my speaker setup, so I need a DAC with preamp. I'd hate to have a preamp and a dac. More clutter.

But I bought a modius for my headphone setup.

 

[5mall5nail5]

I wouldn't buy their expensive models. The modius measures the best of their lineup and costs less than $250.

The main reason I didn't use them before was the lack of a preamp.

I use a NC252 for my speaker setup, so I need a DAC with preamp. I'd hate to have a preamp and a dac. More clutter.

But I bought a modius for my headphone setup.

No doubt the Modius is a great component for what it does and where it's priced. I used the one you're buying until my X18 came. It was fine - and honestly, I can't hear a difference between the Modius and X18 in ordinary testing, but I also can't play DSD through the Modius. If I could, that'd be my choice no doubt.

 

[archerious]

No doubt the Modius is a great component for what it does and where it's priced. I used the one you're buying until my X18 came. It was fine - and honestly, I can't hear a difference between the Modius and X18 in ordinary testing, but I also can't play DSD through the Modius. If I could, that'd be my choice no doubt.

Yeah Schiit's refusal to adopt DSD is a shame.

I will give them credit though, they were completely right about MQA.

 

[5mall5nail5]

Yeah Schiit's refusal to adopt DSD is a shame.

I will give them credit though, they were completely right about MQA.

Yeah as a comp sci guy it's very apparent that MQA is snake oil nonsense.