RME Babyface Pro Headphone amp upgrade

[Jolted]

Hi there I'm new here, I do sound design and recording for a living.

For reasons out of my control it is getting hard to work with my speakers because of the noise even though my room is well acoustically threated. So I have to rely on headphones.

I own a RME Babyface Pro (Pre-FS Gen - so headphone amp not as powerful as FS)
I love the sound of my RME (Super clean) and I wish to keep it, but I'm looking for a 2nd dac/amp with more juice in the Headphone outs to drive some power needy headphones.
I still need my Babyface Pro recording features, so I would send through the optical spdif to another dac/amp mostly for the headphone amp.
I've been looking for a solution for a while. My output options are limited (Optical) and I far as I can tell, smaller headphone only dac/amp combos don't delivers in terms of sound quality.

So here are some options i've considered.

Option 1: Babyface Pro FS
- Would be paying for mic pre-amps which I already own. And no certainty at this point the change for ESS DAC chip was a good thing. And the FS is 300$ more then I payed for mine.
Option 2: Xduoo TA 22
- I've head of issues with some units's optical out in 96K Hz. (Kind of a deal breaker to me) but I'm interested in the tube hybrid feature cause it looks fun and its a cheap option considering.
Option 3: Aune S9C
- Seems like its the thing to beat at that price range which is pretty ideal to me.
Option 4: RME ADI 2 DAC FS
- Twice as expensive as BBFP but apparently the best there is.

I'm basically looking for opinions on these or any other DAC/AMPS suggestion. But keep in mind I'm into these exclusively for the Headphone Amps and as much as possible, I don't want to mitigate the sound quality I wish to improve it.

Thanks so much.

 

[msmucr]

I'd get some relatively simple, reliable external headphone amp like the Schiit Magni or Topping L30 (just speaking about ones I know, pretty sure there are many similar products at price range around 100 EUR). Then I'd use original analog HP out from Babyface as a source.

That would be my cost effective variant, and yes I've done similar thing quite a few times, with RME, MOTUs, Scarletts. It's built-in HP out is fine as an unbalanced line level source, but it can be pretty anemic with less sensitive cans. It's apparent not just for monitoring during editing or mixdown, but also during recording, where HP out with low voltage can distort. Worse my less experienced friends, musicians then tend to crank input recording level, because they simply didn't have enough of total gain for monitoring. So then they were always at risk of clipping somewhere in the chain instead of keeping healthy headroom. External HP amp fixes all those issues and even without its higher gain, in most cases its increased power on tap will improve listening quality with many cans.

My final, aspirational variant would be ADI 2 DAC (I have AD/DA version). It's ten times more, but you'll got not just very good conversion and HP amp, but also EQ and crossfeed. That's really transformative feature for majority of cans and monitors. Sometimes even small correction of one annoying band, resonance or small fix to accommodate to your acoustic space makes listening and monitoring much more pleasant. It's super versatile, you can connect it to various sources.

Just my two cents.

 

[Jolted]

I'd get some relatively simple, reliable external headphone amp like the Schiit Magni or Topping L30 (just speaking about ones I know, pretty sure there are many similar products at price range around 100 EUR). Then I'd use original analog HP out from Babyface as a source.

That would be my cost effective variant, and yes I've done similar thing quite a few times, with RME, MOTUs, Scarletts. It's built-in HP out is fine as an unbalanced line level source, but it can be pretty anemic with less sensitive cans. It's apparent not just for monitoring during editing or mixdown, but also during recording, where HP out with low voltage can distort. Worse my less experienced friends, musicians then tend to crank input recording level, because they simply didn't have enough of total gain for monitoring. So then they were always at risk of clipping somewhere in the chain instead of keeping healthy headroom. External HP amp fixes all those issues and even without its higher gain, in most cases its increased power on tap will improve listening quality with many cans.

My final, aspirational variant would be ADI 2 DAC (I have AD/DA version). It's ten times more, but you'll got not just very good conversion and HP amp, but also EQ and crossfeed. That's really transformative feature for majority of cans and monitors. Sometimes even small correction of one annoying band, resonance or small fix to accommodate to your acoustic space makes listening and monitoring much more pleasant. It's super versatile, you can connect it to various sources.

Just my two cents.

Hey thanks so much. I use Total Mix the Babyface's software for treatment. That works pretty well for my application.
"I'd get some relatively simple, reliable external headphone amp like the Schiit Magni or Topping L30."
I'm just afraid I would be mitigating sound quality a bit going through a second cheaper amp.. I suppose ADI 2 DAC is the right way to go. I suppose I'll have to start saving.

But, if anyone has any experience with the models I have motioned, maybe I could save a lot if the amp quality is on par with RME.

Thanks

 

[msmucr]

Hi and you're welcome,
I believe output impedance, voltage and available power delivery are most important factors in perceived sound from HP amp, maybe also noise floor in case of certain sensitive phones (like in case of IEMs for example), other parameters had much lower priority in my experience. All of that is pretty decent even in case of mentioned HP amps around 100 EUR in my experience. And in terms of built-in HP outputs from those audio interfaces, I wouldn't afraid so much about it being bottleneck there. In many cases its output parameters are pretty much in the same ballpark (means dynamic range, THD into high impedance load) as other line level outs. It only falls short when driving some cans, because it can have quite high output impedance, low output voltage and not enough juice.
I have one spare Schiit Magni (some older model from 2015-6), and couple of times I lend the box with simple RCA to 3.5 mm jack cable to my pals, just for a quick test for what such dedicated HP amp can do in their setups (usually home/project studios pretty much centered around a DAW). Just to try before buying of something in that ballpark. Not once they returned it to me with saying - it didn't improve anything. Usually it was exactly what I expected and experienced myself. Eg. much more controlled and slamming bass at higher volumes, tighter imaging with better phantom center, clearer highs without pronounced sibilance (result of increased distortion when built-in amps are driven harder). I've already touched plenty of gain available on tap (usually there is gain switch available for weaker sources), which is nice for recording. That was pretty much universal across different models of cans (Sennheiser HD600, Beyerdynamic, cheaper Audio Technica).
Yes, there you can certainly find some current interfaces, where built-in amp got better - I can recall some recent Audients are improved, certainly also RME BF Pro improved a lot compared to old model you have, but still - my friend tried his BF Pro and my old Magni together and liked it with his HD600.. (it's understandable, rather complex USB powered interface compared to dedicated HP amp with beefy 15V power supply).
So I'd likely still start with this cheapest variant. Most of e-shops has standard two week return period, at least that's mandated in EU (like Audiophonics), that could be enough for a test and in case of no improvement, you can just send it back.

Anyway I don't want to be annoying and push you towards some unjustified purchase, just in my experience I wouldn't afraid of trying such analog HP amp.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If an external amp is viable you could go with JDS amps. Analog specs beyond the RME, powerful and inexpensive. You could even feed the RME phone out to the JDS if you want to keep monitor outs available. Do a search of reviews here as Amir has tested some of their units.

 

[Jolted]

Thanks guys that's super useful information. I'll look into Schiit and JDS labs. Cheers.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I'd get some relatively simple, reliable external headphone amp like the Schiit Magni or Topping L30 (just speaking about ones I know, pretty sure there are many similar products at price range around 100 EUR). Then I'd use original analog HP out from Babyface as a source.

Indeed. The L30 II is an absolute beast at the price that can drive 10 Vrms into 50 ohms and 15 Vrms into 300 ohms, while also accommodating sensitive IEMs with ease if need be. The max +7 dBu out of the 3.5 mm jack shouldn't ever be able to clip it, the 1/4" at max +13 dBu would need a slight level reduction on the Babyface side but either way no biggie.

If you want an amp with a rustic, robust pro audio feel instead, you could consider a Lake People G103-S MkII as an alternative (not sure whether that ships with ground lift enabled by default these days though, and like the former the gain can only be adjusted internally, i.e. doing so requires some screwdriver action; fancier models from the same stable have externally accessible DIP switches). These are being made in the same general area that RME is from.

 

[msmucr]

Indeed. The L30 II is an absolute beast at the price that can drive 10 Vrms into 50 ohms and 15 Vrms into 300 ohms, while also accommodating sensitive IEMs with ease if need be. The max +7 dBu out of the 3.5 mm jack shouldn't ever be able to clip it, the 1/4" at max +13 dBu would need a slight level reduction on the Babyface side but either way no biggie.

Higher input levels were initially also my concern, I was afraid of clipping Schiit or Topping input when fed with common pro audio line sources.
But weren't any issues with that. BF Pro unbalanced HP out would be fine, as you've mentioned.
I also tried some other gear with fixed line level out (0 dBFS aligned to 20 dBu differentially, so with unbalanced out - hot against ground was 14 dBu), with Magni I tried also even hotter 18 dBu source without any input clipping.
Other aspect is adaptation to particular headphones sensitivity and desired listening level, I tend to optimize gain staging in a way, analog volume pot is mostly operated from roughly half to the max, where its resistive trace has best L/R tracking.
My old Magni has either unity gain or +15 dB, so in case of hot fixed level output it would need some attenuation in digital domain (like -6 dB in TotalMix)
L30 and the current Magni has three-way gain switch and can also attenuate, that might be advantageous sometimes.

If you want an amp with a rustic, robust pro audio feel instead, you could consider a Lake People G103-S MkII as an alternative (not sure whether that ships with ground lift enabled by default these days though, and like the former the gain can only be adjusted internally, i.e. doing so requires some screwdriver action; fancier models from the same stable have externally accessible DIP switches). These are being made in the same general area that RME is from.

I know those Lake People G series amps as well from some studios. Very rugged, reliable with decades of use and in case of issues also serviceable (standard components, classic through the hole construction, at least at models I saw). I was also considering those back then, but they were on back order in that time, plus it was easily 2-3 times the price of those powerful "consumer" HP amps, so I tried those. So far no issues, I would've heard of among my friends, usually the have it approximately from covid days, when they spent more time at home. Maybe someone will worn out a pot with intensive use, but that's manageable I'd guess.
I also considered the possible ground loop issues with unbalanced input, but so far it was fine in different setups. Only time when I was on the fence was longer cable run to vocal/voiceover booth somewhere, and was prepared to add isolation/unbalancing transformer there, but even there that wasn't necessary.
In general the only time I've had to solve those grounding loop issue with unbalanced outs were at one of my computers with internal PCIe RME AIO card. No matter what connection arrangement from differential output I tried (+ to gnd, + to -), I had always buzz there. The same even with built-in unbalanced HP out. Then I finally isolated PCI slot metal bracket in the case with duct tape and added plastic washer under screw. From then it is fine.
But that was only issue, so far I haven't experienced such problem with various external USB interfaces (RME, MOTU, Focusrite) and its unbalanced outs feeding HP amps.