Rega Brio Upgrade to Class D amp?

[corumuk]

I've had a Rega Brio 2017 amp for several years. It's actually the second as the first was returned rather quickly due to speaker hum. The second one has it as well but its less noticeable.
Overall, it has a really enjoyable sound, but I'm wondering whether it might be time to swap it out for something different.
How would something like the Topping PA5 II or a similar SMSL class D compare? I appreciate the PA5 II is half the price of the Brio, so would it be able to match the Brio in terms of overall SQ or would I need to spend a bit more.

My system is: PC (foobar/flac) - DACMagic Azur - Brio - Dynaudio Emit M10 (on Partington Super Dreadnought stands).

Thanks.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
Firstly, is there any particular problem that you want to fix? How loud do you listen and how far from your speakers do you sit?

It's really unlikely that changing your Amp will improve your sound. You might get higher SPL (louder) but that only matters if you feel like your amp is limited.

The Rega Io (your Amps little brother) was reviewed here and came off badly... but read the comments carefully because even then the issues were described as probably not audible.
I had the Io, I changed it and did not notice an improvement
Your Amp, anecdotally, is better than the Io.

You use your PC as source. USB? It's possible that is the source of your hum due to a ground loop? Worth investigating.

What is definitely worth looking at is DSP/EQ in foobar. That's where the real improvement comes before you start thinking about new speakers. Read up - it's the place to go.

Short version, if your Amp is loud enough, it's already fine.

Enjoy the music

 

[Zek]

the first was returned rather quickly due to speaker hum. The second one has it as well but its less noticeable.

Does that hum exist even when none of the sources are connected to the amplifier, or does it occur when a source is connected?

 

[antcollinet]

Hi, and welcome
Firstly, is there any particular problem that you want to fix? How loud do you listen and how far from your speakers do you sit?

It's really unlikely that changing your Amp will improve your sound. You might get higher SPL (louder) but that only matters if you feel like your amp is limited.

The Rega Io (your Amps little brother) was reviewed here and came off badly... but read the comments carefully because even then the issues were described as probably not audible.
I had the Io, I changed it and did not notice an improvement
Your Amp, anecdotally, is better than the Io.

You use your PC as source. USB? It's possible that is the source of your hum due to a ground loop? Worth investigating.

What is definitely worth looking at is DSP/EQ in foobar. That's where the real improvement comes before you start thinking about new speakers. Read up - it's the place to go.

Short version, if your Amp is loud enough, it's already fine.

Enjoy the music

Agreed - if there is no particular problem then the only reason to upgrade an amp is to get more power.


Having said that, if you are still determined to change - then yes, even the cheaper class D amps will sound just as good as the Brio (and you'll avoid the overheating potential of the Brio too).

I'd suggest taking a look at a pair of the soon to be released Fosi V3 Monos - if your source has volume control capability - or you are prepared to also get a pre-amp - or even just a passive volume knob between DAC and amp.

 

[corumuk]

Thanks for the responses and helpful suggestions.
Regarding the hum issue, the first unit had quite a noticeable hum through the right speaker and even the right headphone speaker.
Online information at the time seemed to suggest this was, if not common, then certainly not unusual for the brand, who I gather did not publish any SNR data for their products. The dealer tested the unit and agreed the hum was louder than normal and offered to replace with a unit that they had personally tested. Not being a fan of receiving open box goods I said I'd take my chances with another sealed unit. The second one was better, there is still a slight hum through both speakers, but this is much reduced and not noticeable at normal listening distances, or through the headphones, only when very close to the mid/woofer. This remains constant at all volume levels and when the DAC is switched off/optical cable disconnected from the PC.

As an aside, I started a thread over on PFM at the time to try and discuss this. Although it started out quite civil, some folks over there clearly didn't like it and it got shut down and completely removed after a few weeks.

I've seen loads of really great reviews regarding the brio online and despite the above experiences I have stuck with it and do think that it sounds really good. It's a shame there isn't a measurement based review of the brio here, although I did read with interest a while ago the review of the brio IO and subsequent discussion with some interest (as well as several of the reviews for D class amps).

I guess the reason for considering a class D amp isn't so much that there is anything profoundly wrong with my current setup (listening environment aside), but more just an itch to try something different and new. If I did decide to change to one of the suggested D class amps, just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be a step backwards.

That 'itch' has also had me looking at newer DAC's, but there as well I see that my existing DACMagic Azure with its Wolfson chips was very well regarded at the time and the more I look the less sure I am that upgrading to a similarly priced ESS or AKM based alternative would offer any improvement.

Just to elaborate on the listening environment, it's in the living/dining room, which is 8m long but only 3.5m wide at its widest. The PC is basically the media centre and the speakers are placed 2m apart roughly midway along the longer wall (either side of the TV), the sofa against the opposite wall. Due to the narrowness of the room they have to be placed quite close to the rear wall (about 6 inches). If we had them on the end walls, which would clearly be better they would be blocking the window. We only really listen at low/moderate levels these days, so hopefully placement near the rear wall doesn't detract too much from the experience. One thing I noticed a few years back was when we replaced the carpet with laminate. This definitely seemed to degrade the SQ somewhat, due to reflections perhaps. Also replaced the speaker spikes with largish dome shaped bumpons to protect the hard floor, which seems to work ok.

 

[Willem]

The Brio is pretty low powered for proper dynamics, I guess, but that has nothing to do with the hum. The low power output can be cured to some extent by adding two even quite small subwoofers, and high passing the Brio. Did you ever measure in room response? If you want seriously better sound I would also suggest some form of dsp room equalization of the lower frequencies.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
Sounds like you are most of the way to identifying what you need to do.

Your electronics are fine (hum inaudible in normal use).
Speaker placement and room acoustics... and therefore EQ seems to be where you should make changes.
Did you see the speaker review?
Thread 'Dynaudio Emit M10 Review (bookshelf speaker)' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...udio-emit-m10-review-bookshelf-speaker.20908/

It makes sense for you to make some measurements now. That will scratch any upgrade 'itch' for quite some time

Until you understand your speakers in your room, it's difficult to know if any change will actually be helpful.

One quick upgrade might be to add a rug though!

 

[corumuk]

Haha, yes, good idea about the rug. We do have one between the speakers and sofa.
I saw the speaker review and discussion here yes, it made for interesting reading.
Subjectively the Emit M10's sound pretty good to me, certainly much better than the Q Acoustics bookshelf speakers I had before, which had very little bass extension.

On the subject of EQ, no I've never taken room measurements, other than say speaker distance to rear walls, each other and the listener. If you mean measurements using sound meters etc then that's probably a bit beyond my technical abilities. Unfortunately there are practical reasons why we have to compromise on for instance speaker distance from the back wall, but I have them about the right distance apart (2m), toed in slightly, and about 2m from where I sit. They are also well away from walls to either side. As mentioned though, listening volumes tend to be quite modest these days (i.e. not that loud) so having them a bit closer to the back wall may even help. I've also always tended to lean (rightly or wrongly) towards the view that less DSP and shorter signal paths are preferable, so have used ASIO4all or WASAPI in the past to try and bypass the Windows mixer and also leaned towards amps without tone controls such as the brio.

 

[JeremyFife]

Haha, yes, good idea about the rug. We do have one between the speakers and sofa.
I saw the speaker review and discussion here yes, it made for interesting reading.
Subjectively the Emit M10's sound pretty good to me, certainly much better than the Q Acoustics bookshelf speakers I had before, which had very little bass extension.

On the subject of EQ, no I've never taken room measurements, other than say speaker distance to rear walls, each other and the listener. If you mean measurements using sound meters etc then that's probably a bit beyond my technical abilities. Unfortunately there are practical reasons why we have to compromise on for instance speaker distance from the back wall, but I have them about the right distance apart (2m), toed in slightly, and about 2m from where I sit. They are also well away from walls to either side. As mentioned though, listening volumes tend to be quite modest these days (i.e. not that loud) so having them a bit closer to the back wall may even help. I've also always tended to lean (rightly or wrongly) towards the view that less DSP and shorter signal paths are preferable, so have used ASIO4all or WASAPI in the past to try and bypass the Windows mixer and also leaned towards amps without tone controls such as the brio.

By measurements, I mean that you should consider getting a umic-1 microphone and the free REW software and start to find out what is actually happening with your system in your own room . It's not that tricky, it's not really technical and there are some plenty of people here who will help. It's not expensive (£100 ish)

I'd go as far as to say that upgrades are a bit of a waste of time until you try this. Moving your speakers relative to the back wall might help - but measurements show you what has actually changed.
I'd suggest that you read a bit about DSP too - certainly don't take my word for it - it's probably time to have more processing, not less. Windows mixer and tone controls are a bit basic - you can apply sophisticated PEQ in your PC.
This is all cheap, and incredibly effective.
Read up on this, and then try it, you may be surprised

 

[Willem]

Indeed. The idea that the signal chain should be as simple as possible was one of those nutty ideas pushed by audio journalists in the 1980s. Once you start measuring actual in-room response you will be horrified by the uneven result, with often low frequency peaks of +/- 10 dB or more: the room is your big problem, and dsp room eq of the lower frequencies is the best cure.

 

[vuittion]

Thanks for the responses and helpful suggestions.
Regarding the hum issue, the first unit had quite a noticeable hum through the right speaker and even the right headphone speaker.
Online information at the time seemed to suggest this was, if not common, then certainly not unusual for the brand, who I gather did not publish any SNR data for their products. The dealer tested the unit and agreed the hum was louder than normal and offered to replace with a unit that they had personally tested. Not being a fan of receiving open box goods I said I'd take my chances with another sealed unit. The second one was better, there is still a slight hum through both speakers, but this is much reduced and not noticeable at normal listening distances, or through the headphones, only when very close to the mid/woofer. This remains constant at all volume levels and when the DAC is switched off/optical cable disconnected from the PC.

As an aside, I started a thread over on PFM at the time to try and discuss this. Although it started out quite civil, some folks over there clearly didn't like it and it got shut down and completely removed after a few weeks.

I've seen loads of really great reviews regarding the brio online and despite the above experiences I have stuck with it and do think that it sounds really good. It's a shame there isn't a measurement based review of the brio here, although I did read with interest a while ago the review of the brio IO and subsequent discussion with some interest (as well as several of the reviews for D class amps).

I guess the reason for considering a class D amp isn't so much that there is anything profoundly wrong with my current setup (listening environment aside), but more just an itch to try something different and new. If I did decide to change to one of the suggested D class amps, just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be a step backwards.

That 'itch' has also had me looking at newer DAC's, but there as well I see that my existing DACMagic Azure with its Wolfson chips was very well regarded at the time and the more I look the less sure I am that upgrading to a similarly priced ESS or AKM based alternative would offer any improvement.

Just to elaborate on the listening environment, it's in the living/dining room, which is 8m long but only 3.5m wide at its widest. The PC is basically the media centre and the speakers are placed 2m apart roughly midway along the longer wall (either side of the TV), the sofa against the opposite wall. Due to the narrowness of the room they have to be placed quite close to the rear wall (about 6 inches). If we had them on the end walls, which would clearly be better they would be blocking the window. We only really listen at low/moderate levels these days, so hopefully placement near the rear wall doesn't detract too much from the experience. One thing I noticed a few years back was when we replaced the carpet with laminate. This definitely seemed to degrade the SQ somewhat, due to reflections perhaps. Also replaced the speaker spikes with largish dome shaped bumpons to protect the hard floor, which seems to work ok.

Why worry about measurements, you already said it sounds really good.