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Realtek audio on motherboards.

xrqp

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Link: Realtek ALC1200 vs ALC1220
They claim impressive SNR and features, but does anyone know how good it is? I ask because I am buying a new motherboard for streaming audio and tv, and I have a choice of ALC897, or 1220, or 4080 or 4082. Should assume none are as good as ASR blue or green and I get the cheapest ALC897, knowing I will use USB to external DAC?

Link: ALC4080
 
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Dunring

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The 1220 is a decent chip, just depends on implementation. I'd make sure you have optical just as an option in case you have USB noise. The problem I run into is where the connector is located to get a clean line out on the 3.5mm jacks. Many new DACs have jitter free optical performance. USB is preferred, but great to have an onboard optical backup plan.
 

TonyJZX

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surely these wonderful figures are done in isolation?

i can hardly expect the likes of MSI Gigabyte Asus et.al. to care a whit about SNR in a motherboard environment where RGB lights and fan ducts sell product.
 

Galliardist

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surely these wonderful figures are done in isolation?

i can hardly expect the likes of MSI Gigabyte Asus et.al. to care a whit about SNR in a motherboard environment where RGB lights and fan ducts sell product.
Gigabyte do at least try to isolate their audio and sometimes a USB port gets better power too, though whether it's worth anything I don't know. My current home "gaming" PC which has the lights and crap, bought when I was unwell and my previous machine died, is intermittently pretty noisy on its headphone outputs (when it was good it was good, if you know what I mean). Modern laptops seem quiet through headphones, but I don't have the ability to test output properly. I will get a good ADC sooner or later.

The biggest problem with Realtek audio chips is driver updates randomly breaking stuff. Every Windows audio driver update on my PC broke the Realtek sound, uninstalled Equaliser APO, and lost some external DAC drivers as well. So on that home PC now I'm back to the Dragonfly Red I bought before I knew better, just because it survives such things. It's not uncommon, either, with lots of fixing audio issues going on where I work. And Linux updates also lose their Realtek audio sometimes, I'm told.

My work laptop, a Dell, is much better behaved though I don't have Equaliser APO on it (I have the USB driver for my SA-10 and have had no problems there).
 

Randyman...

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I also have an old Dragonfly Red I got a long time ago (seemed like 10 years lol). Dragonfly is a better solution than MoBo 1/8" outs (I use one for my phone to interface with my recording rig for playback) - but obviously not included in the price of the MoBo :)

Going through a high-quality isolation transformer can also help clean up ground loops from the PSU/MoBo audio ground to the analog input you are interfacing with (can help with USB noise that comes in as analog ground noise through the analog input). But for the premium you might pay for a MoBo with "Good" onboard sound and a $100 isolation transformer, you can just get a cheap Class-Compliant USB DAC that will likely fare much better.

That said - The little PC/Audio setup I gifted my mom sounds OK with 1/8" MoBo audio to a vintage Sony ES receiver and some small bookshelfs. Since the receiver runs at low volume(gain), the induced noise from the MoBo is not a problem, and I'm sure the Sony has a proper input stage which also helps.

If anyone cares (they don't lol) - For my listening, all of my personal PC-Based playback is through RME or SSL conversion; or HDMI to AVR; or AES to Active Mains...
 
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Randyman...

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$69-$79, and scores high on Amirm's review. I'd do this before using a "Premium" (Extra $) MoBo and possibly an isolation transformer (again, extra $):

 

DVDdoug

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I ask because I am buying a new motherboard for streaming audio and tv
I don't always trust the published specs and the actual noise depends on how much noise gets into the analog-side. (Noise can leak-in from the computer's power supply or from all of the digital data/switching inside the computer).

I had a soundcard once that had audible noise when the hard drive was accessed.

Should assume none are as good as ASR blue or green and I get the cheapest ALC897, knowing I will use USB to external DAC?
If you aren't getting noise, the other specs are probably better than human hearing so you can't do any better. That's true for most modern audio electronics. If you aren't hearing noise there are probably no other audible defects/limitations.




...Speakers & headphones are a different story.

...The microphone input on a regular soundcard or laptop is also a "different story". They are often noisy and they aren't compatible with stage or studio mics. You need a proper audio interface for recording from a microphone, or there are some pretty-good USB "podcast" mics.
 

AnalogSteph

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I ask because I am buying a new motherboard for streaming audio and tv
What exactly would it be connected to?

This is a very long story. Practical results may depend not only on chip performance itself, but also mo/bo manufacturer implementation and overall system construction, including details that no-one ever talks about such as mo/bo PCB layers, layout and how good the ground bonding is between the board, case and power supply (I would want a massive case with the main chassis powdercoated in one piece, if at all). In a nutshell though, if you have a decent-quality board, no dGPU, a decent case (not necessarily the latest and greatest) and most importantly no external ground loops, you should be able to get a maximum out of the chip.

Chip performance itself would make it into the low/mid orange region, with the limiting factor being distortion; the distortion profile itself, however, is generally benign (dominant H2 and flat across the audio spectrum). Specified dynamic range is generally being reached or exceeded, although the better chips tend to be a tiered society and these numbers only apply to one stereo output and input each, with the others giving more pedestrian performance. This is done not just for cost-saving but plain thermals as well; a chip with that much high-performance circuitry stuffed into it would risk overheating and premature death.

Sorted by best dynamic range:
ALC1220 = ALC4080 (120 / 110 dB, distortion -94ish dB)
ALC1200 = ALC4082 (110 / 106 dB, distortion -86ish dB)
ALC897 (100 / 97 dB, distortion -92ish dB)

All of them have some unique quirks:

As typical for standard quality HDA chips, the ALC897 line input can handle about 3 dB higher levels than the chip itself can output, typically about 1.5 vs. 1.1 Vrms. In return, I cannot detect any substantial ADC filter ripple on the frequency response, so it must be much like the ALC887 it replaced in this regard. Performance seems perfectly adequate for a desk setup (or anything else with a volume control following) and average consumer recording needs. There must be lots of CD players than may be louder but not fundamentally better.

ALC1200 has higher maximum output levels, but not the upgraded amplifier circuitry to match apparently, so distortion may be rather worse than the lesser chip if you crank it (but obviously, it's still overall better if absolute level isn't as much of a concern). The ADC substantially exceeds its 102 dB dynamic range spec, its digital filter performance isn't anything overly special though (about +/-0.025 dB worth of periodic ripple, though that still beats quite a number of consumer-grade ADCs, as well as AK55xx at lower sample rates).

ALC1220 again sports very low ADC digital filter ripple and dynamic range rather exceeding spec, though I didn't like how soon its noise floor rises around 20 kHz, the noise shaper seems to be of a rather low order compared to the ALC1200 ADC.

As mentioned, the (electret) microphone inputs tend to be a story in and out of themselves. The bias voltage tends to be varying shades of too noisy.

Here are some threads with measurements strewn about:

Here are some loopback measurements I took using the ALC897 on an MSI B760M-A WIFI DDR4 board recently (and, arguably, not world's shortest or best-shielded audio cable). ASIO via ASIO4All. And yes, 44.1 kHz measured a fraction of a dB quieter for some reason but also did not suffer from degraded performance (resampling somewhere?).
Unfortunately I failed to heed my own advice about using the mic-in to get a better idea of output DR (may try again next week), but we can probably assume about 102 dB(A) as @Julian Krause got:
 

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xrqp

xrqp

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AnalogSteph, Wow. Thanks for the info. Even though most of it is over my head, I did read it all, and much of the links.

I was wondering if the PC analog audio output could go to a high-end stereo (preamp, amp, speakers). It would have to sound high-end, like a good separate DAC would sound. I don't use headphones.

I have a stereo system with a separate Roon streamer, and separate DAC. My TV plays thru the same stereo. Now am looking into redoing everything. I was planning to add a PC computer at the TV and use it in place of my streamer and Shield Pro, and for more functionality. I was not sure if the PC's DAC is good enough that it could also replace my DAC.

When I posted this, I was going to re-purpose my old 8-liter PC case and was looking at AM5 socket mobos, and started this post. But about one day after posting, I thought it better to get a new 0.5-liter PC instead of building a 8-liter PC. So, I ordered a generic NUC - Beelink NQ12 Pro with i3-N305 for $330.

I am also re-thinking if I should go to high-end 5.1 or 5.2 surround (for movies and music) that can also do stereo, instead of just stereo. I think this would require an AVR, so I think the computer DAC could not be used because of the surround digital stream protections.
 
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xrqp

xrqp

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Randyman, I think you are right. To get the Realtek ALC1220, or ALC4080, or similar, probably would up the mobo price quite a bit and still leave me with some concerns and uncertianty. So a separate DAC seems better overall.
 

ZolaIII

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Randyman, I think you are right. To get the Realtek ALC1220, or ALC4080, or similar, probably would up the mobo price quite a bit and still leave me with some concerns and uncertianty. So a separate DAC seems better overall.
It's a broken cycle! You will soon find that you need a multichannel DAC which almost don't exist anymore in the standalone form at least not as deacent PC audio card which can give proper audio output level of 2V unbalanced. There are higher tier audio interfaces that are not quite cheap and they are all balanced while most home active sub's ain't. There are DSP (ADC - DSP - DAC) multichannel solution's which again aren't cheap but probably a best choice if you want to go multiple input source independent and unbalanced or balanced (stil no combo's that I know of) like for example MiniDSP Flex. There are also standalone, internal, PCI, multichannel audio cards which can give 2V unbalanced output and are less prone of picking up noise under stress (from GPU) for example Creative BlasterX AE-5 Plus which is not all that expensive and will work if you don't nead analog inputs (ADC performance ain't great). Things to additionally consider is such won't fit in mini PC's and they aren't great solution for desktop gaming machines with higher tier GPU's which consume a lot of power as it will partially black the air flow to it (how much depends on MB length and PCI-E slot placement).
 
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xrqp

xrqp

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To play the surround sound stream (Dolby or DTS) of a movie, I think it must be done by an AVR (or AVP), and I think it must use the DACs inside the AVR. I am not aware of any other choice to play a surround sound movies. The MiniDSP Flex cannot play Dolby nor DTS streams.
 

ZolaIII

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To play the surround sound stream (Dolby or DTS) of a movie, I think it must be done by an AVR (or AVP), and I think it must use the DACs inside the AVR. I am not aware of any other choice to play a surround sound movies. The MiniDSP Flex cannot play Dolby nor DTS streams.
I don’t think you can remap and control chenels of any AVR to use them for multiple subwoofer's and as you wish. There are licensed paid software decoders but I also doubt they will work with DSP, they should with multichannel PCI cards or embedded one's.
 

ozzy9832001

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If you hook up to the onboard sound you will be disappointed. Almost anything is better. SB AE5 is fine or the G6 or X4 (last 2 are USB). I've tried multiple solutions over the years and the onboard sound would have to be a last resort. The difference is noticable in both peak volume levels and distortion at those levels.
 

AnalogSteph

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Ran a few more tests on the ALC897 today. The microphone input stage seems to start clipping at about -12 dBFS in when input gain is set to unity (correspondingly higher when activating extra input gain), which is not something I've seen with these before... usually the mic in can take about 1 Vrms as well.

The best noise level at an output of -20 dB (26) in headphone mode and a +20 dB input gain at 24/48 is -83.1 dB(A), suggesting a good 103 dB(A) worth of output dynamic range. I have not seen further improvements at +30 dB. Line-out mode is a bit worse, since its higher output impedance is not keeping ground loop artifacts at bay quite as well.

I have no way of gauging mic input noise at this point, but let's just say if it is much worse than -110 to -114 dBFS(A) in it would really rather suck at its job. (I have found about 20 nV/sqrt(Hz) worth of input noise density in the past, or ~2.8 µV unwtd 20 kHz.)
 

Pursuit

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I am still using a old Dell 9010 MT about 10 years old and there is mechanical hard drive in it. The on board audio used to be noisy whenever I opened a folder, opened a webpage, or the CPU was busy. That's the reason I got several USB dongles. Qudelix 5K basically solved the problem. Recently I tested the onboard audio again and I was surprised the noise is completely gone. And to be honest, I can't hear any difference between RealTek and Qudelix. With Qudelix, it is only completely noise free in Bluetooth mode. In USB mode, there is very slight pop noise when music starts and stops. I have to say the pop is extremely hard to notice, but is there. All my other USB audio devices have that audio on/off pop and only worse. But, now the on board RealTek is completely silent when no music playing. There could be several reasons, 1. driver update, 2. I removed the heater from the power strip, 3., I removed a ethernet over power line adapter from the power strip. My point is, the board audio is capable, but you have to remove interference from other power sources. While, other external devices do their best to isolate the audio system so that you don't have to worry about it. But, in terms of sound quality, no difference.
 

MWC

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I recently built a PC using the ALC4080 audio chip (with audio boost 5 ) on the MSI PRO Z790-A WIFI Mothetboard. I can use the analogue outs into my Denon Receiver to give me 7.1 PCM surround sound plus stereo 7.1 surround DSD64.
It does not sound quite as good as my Topping D50 or D10 DACs, that I use elsewhere, but those DACs are limited to stereo only. So this chip is very useful for Multi channel music in PCM (up to 32/192) and DSD64. In theory it should be able to play DXD (via the front mic port only) but I can't get that to work. I imagine MSI has not implemented the chip to do so.
 
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dwalme

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I recently built a PC using the ALC4080 audio chip (with audio boost 5 ) on the MSI PRO Z790-A WIFI Mothetboard. I can use the analogue outs into my Denon Receiver to give me 7.1 PCM surround sound plus stereo 7.1 surround DSD64.
It does not sound quite as good as my Topping D50 or D10 DACs, that I use elsewhere, but those DACs are limited to stereo only. So this chip is very useful for Multi channel music in PCM (up to 32/192) and DSD64. In theory it should be able to play DXD (via the front mic port only) but I can't get that to work. I imagine MSI has not implemented the chip to do so.
Why not just use hdmi from your computer and have 7.1 digital channels?

How old is your receiver? Anything made in the last 15 years or so is likely doing an analog to digital conversion on the 7.1 inputs.

Staying digital between the computer and receiver would eliminate the extra ADC /DAC.
 

e4bW

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Gigabyte do at least try to isolate their audio and sometimes a USB port gets better power too, though whether it's worth anything I don't know. My current home "gaming" PC which has the lights and crap, bought when I was unwell and my previous machine died, is intermittently pretty noisy on its headphone outputs (when it was good it was good, if you know what I mean). Modern laptops seem quiet through headphones, but I don't have the ability to test output properly. I will get a good ADC sooner or later.

The biggest problem with Realtek audio chips is driver updates randomly breaking stuff. Every Windows audio driver update on my PC broke the Realtek sound, uninstalled Equaliser APO, and lost some external DAC drivers as well. So on that home PC now I'm back to the Dragonfly Red I bought before I knew better, just because it survives such things. It's not uncommon, either, with lots of fixing audio issues going on where I work. And Linux updates also lose their Realtek audio sometimes, I'm told.

My work laptop, a Dell, is much better behaved though I don't have Equaliser APO on it (I have the USB driver for my SA-10 and have had no problems there).
I have many questions about Equalizer APO on my Gigabyte Gaming 3 170x Pro. The Creative Labs onboard EQ the original software allowed me to EQ anything at all to make my HR resolution speakers and amp to sound exactly the way the song was. After Creative Labs stopped supporting the motherboard I had to reach out to an external search for an EQ - the one that popped up to be consistent was Equalizer APO. It worked for a while until there were too many drivers on my system from too many players and drivers from pcm soundcards/dac's and DSD players/dac's. Now Equalizer APO won't work either for both PCM and DSD so everything is still awesome on native equipment (My motherboard is really awesome for conveying bit perfect audio at the native resolution). But I cannot get an EQ player to control the output at the motherboard output level whereas I could do so for a long time originally.
 

Galliardist

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I have many questions about Equalizer APO on my Gigabyte Gaming 3 170x Pro. The Creative Labs onboard EQ the original software allowed me to EQ anything at all to make my HR resolution speakers and amp to sound exactly the way the song was. After Creative Labs stopped supporting the motherboard I had to reach out to an external search for an EQ - the one that popped up to be consistent was Equalizer APO. It worked for a while until there were too many drivers on my system from too many players and drivers from pcm soundcards/dac's and DSD players/dac's. Now Equalizer APO won't work either for both PCM and DSD so everything is still awesome on native equipment (My motherboard is really awesome for conveying bit perfect audio at the native resolution). But I cannot get an EQ player to control the output at the motherboard output level whereas I could do so for a long time originally.
Why did the Creative Labs EQ stop working? Ending support on its own shouldn't stop software from working: was this a Windows update? Do you still have the last version of the software that worked?

You may need, as much of a pain as it is, to reinstall Windows and just use fewer devices to get Equalizer APO to work again. You might also be able to clean up some of your drivers in Device Manager - turn on Show Hidden Devices, and uninstall drivers for audio devices you aren't working. If you can do that, then you should be able to uninstall and reinstall Equalizer APO and get things working again that way.
 
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