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Question about filters - MQA vs Hi-Res?

MalinYamato

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There seems to be a fashion to defend MQA without providing scientific proofs about it being worth its use as a format or codec, rather than plain lossy or lossless. Why a 'folded' lossy DRM format should exist, the answer is obvious, not for your enjoyment but for the $$$$
I am neutral and my knowledge is limited. I ask hypothetical questions as a Tidal Hifi consumer to more knowledgeable members of this forum in order to make a retinal decision whether to buy a DAC with XMOS-MQA. At this point I dont see any merits of MQA as something necessary for me as a consumer instead of receiving compressed LOG-PCMs as FLAC, but if you are listening to MASTER streams from Tidal you are pretty much stuck having to do the final unfold to obtain optimal resolution. Prior purchase decisions, it would be beneficial to consumers like I to have answers to questions such as: Provided that I use a DAC without MQA unfolding capability, how much may I lose in SQ when receiving Tital Masters? Is MQA going to be short-lived? Provided that the rationale behind MQA is to reduce computational and bandwidth cost, what will happen to the format as such costs diminishes? That is, may I live without MQA for some years until I find alternatives or Tidal decides to abolish it? MQA is a new format/codec for me, which got my recent attention during my search for a DAC. Besides questions as a consumer, I am very very interested in knowing in a scientific way about the merits vs demitasses of the this format/codec as well as the business objectives behind it.
 

Veri

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Is MQA going to be short-lived? Provided that the rationale behind MQA is to reduce computational and bandwidth cost, what will happen to the format as such costs diminishes? That is, may I live without MQA for some years until I find alternatives or Tidal decides to abolish it?
Those questions especially, outline the negatives to MQA. The downsides to something like digital DRM is that when the standard/format dies, the compressed/locked files stay like that. It's an awful thing and especially since there is no real computational and bandwidth problem with other technologies ... amazon (and probably spotify) music will have a lossless streaming tier, I am sure, if not now it'll happen eventually.
 
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mansr

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Provided that I use a DAC without MQA unfolding capability, how much may I lose in SQ when receiving Tital Masters?
If you're using the decoder in the Tidal player, nothing whatsoever. The "second unfold" or "rendering" or whatever they're calling it today is a sham.

Aside from a few fringe download stores, Tidal is the only purveyor of MQA material. Since their player includes a decoder, there's very little reason to buy an MQA-capable DAC.
 

MalinYamato

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Those questions especially, outline the negatives to MQA. The downsides to something like digital DRM is that when the standard/format dies, the compressed/locked files stay like that. It's an awful thing and especially since there is no real computational and bandwidth problem with other technologies ... amazon (and probably spotify) music will have a lossless streaming tier, I am sure, if not now it'll happen eventually.
Yes, thats a very valid point and I am pretty sure that the MQA committee has done everything in their power that you will never be able to unlock them, still I suppose even if makers stop producing DACs with MQA, you will always be able to play them at 92/24 on your new DAC, but without the last unfold?
 

Jimbob54

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Yes, thats a very valid point and I am pretty sure that the MQA committee has done everything in their power that you will never be able to unlock them, still I suppose even if makers stop producing DACs with MQA, you will always be able to play them at 92/24 on your new DAC, but without the last unfold?

I suppose not if the MQA bods remove Tidal and Roon etc licence to distribute and decode. Insofar as you havent bought the files on Tidal , no loss, but if they remove Roon's ability to unfold locally stored MQA files, you would presumably have to find other software/ hardware to do it and pay for it.
 

MalinYamato

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Why MQA? No filtered sources! The file-size of a 192/24 song of "The Virgin", Madonna is 135.3 MB with FLAC and 46.2 MB with MQA according to TechWire. This is a substantial reduction in file-size and beneficial for customers who listen offline, pay for every bit they download and may be critical for those with limited network resources. Having these numbers at hand, next step is to argue whether such reduction in size is worth the potential loss of audible elements. However, for me personally and most Swedes and Japanese in general, it does not matter at all if I (we) had to listen to The Virgin carried by a 135.3 MB FLAC stream, even when on the go. Hence, what remains to worry about for us who are blessed with solid fast low latency networks and providers that do not charge for music streams, is digital smearing, which is a side effect of applying various filters to make CD grade music enjoyable, but something that is not necessary when using MQA to encode and authenticate masters. I guess that this is the very topic of this thread and in my book a very valid reason for customers to consider MQA. Applying filters on sources produces lots of versions each that reflects the taste of the person who applied them, not necessarily your taste or according to your ears. This is bad engineering practices, as it should be up to consumers to chose whichever filter they want. If others such as Amazon attempt to compete with Tidals Master offering without adopting MQA, are those able to provide unfiltered content? Lastly, there is one more aspect to this which I dont quite understand. How much of an improvement to the audible spectrum, below 20khz, does the inclusion of the inaudible spectrum above 20Khz provide?
 

MalinYamato

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I suppose not if the MQA bods remove Tidal and Roon etc licence to distribute and decode. Insofar as you havent bought the files on Tidal , no loss, but if they remove Roon's ability to unfold locally stored MQA files, you would presumably have to find other software/ hardware to do it and pay for it.
I didn't know that you may buy MQA files at Tidals.
I suppose not if the MQA bods remove Tidal and Roon etc licence to distribute and decode. Insofar as you havent bought the files on Tidal , no loss, but if they remove Roon's ability to unfold locally stored MQA files, you would presumably have to find other software/ hardware to do it and pay for it.
Very nasty if they do such thing. Has something like that ever happened before?
Is it possible to implement a player that grabs a MQA file and pushes it as it is without the first unfold to a DAC with MQA which may perform all the unfolds, or does the hardware MQA decoder only perform the last unfold.
 

Jimbob54

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I didn't know that you may buy MQA files at Tidals.

Very nasty if they do such thing. Has something like that ever happened before?
Is it possible to implement a player that grabs a MQA file and pushes it as it is without the first unfold to a DAC with MQA which may perform all the unfolds, or does the hardware MQA decoder only perform the last unfold.

1. I didnt mean that. I meant if Tidal and MQA fall out of love, Tidal will just stream the standard non MQA files. The consumer is no worse off other than losing MQA content.

2. No idea about history . Its possible in both Roon and Tidal software to let the DAC do all the decoding. In Roon its the device setup options, in Tidal app its in streaming settings IIRC. Enable passthrough.
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

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There seems to be a fashion to ridicule MQA without providing scientific proofs about weakness in the format or codec.

Yes, you are right about my post, specifically. The jesting about MQA is not based on scientific proofs about any weakness, but is rather about my perception of the agenda behind it, and my reaction to that, both rational and emotional. Others on this forum and elsewhere, some of whom have replied to your posts, are much more knowledgeable than I about the scientific merits and demerits of MQA in terms of audio resolution. I personally have no basis to question or critique the scientific creativity and ingenuity of the creators of MQA.

In the first place, the audible benefit of greater than 20-bit 48kHz resolution remains a contentious topic. But for argument's sake, let us grant a benefit from 96/24 or 192/24 resolution, and assume you can find a reconstruction filter setting on your DAC which would allow such high frequency content to pass through. Given the availability of such resolution in the form of FLAC files and streaming (from some services), what is the benefit of MQA, unless for some reason you are wedded to Tidal? As member mansr pointed out, if you cut out the same content from FLAC files that is cut out of MQA, the resulting file sizes or bitrates will be similar, so the argument of limited bandwidth or file system space does not favor MQA. If consumers demand equivalent resolution FLAC streaming, the industry will provide it. Also, it has been mentioned in the press that many of the high-res files available as FLAC, without DRM, at HDTracks and High-ResAudio and other sources, are actually the studio masters. So, those do not have the "filters" (whatever that may be; I am interpreting it as different mixes, and not the filters of the thread title) that you refer to in a later post.

I breathed a sigh of relief and silently cheered when the Amazon Music HD announcement of last September made no mention of MQA. Amazon's HD quality corresponds to CD quality, but their growing UHD (ultra HD) collection corresponds to high-res files, access to which is included as part of the Music HD streaming subscription. I view MQA as a bad form of DRM, disguised as a benefit of compact size high-res audio of (supposedly) studio masters, but without being actually superior to other high-res audio formats that do not carry an extraneous licensing fee.

There is always DRM in the streaming subscription world that almost everyone prefers to downloads on basis of lower costs. I respect the entertainment industry's wish to protect the content it owns. I respect the artists' right to non-piracy of content that they and the industry create and distribute, and make a living off. I have never illegally received or distributed music or movies or books. Thanks to the industry, and recording and reproduction technology, billions of people worldwide are able to enjoy much more entertainment conveniently than would otherwise be possible. In the streaming present and future, the industry is able to protect their content from piracy by most consumers using non-MQA DRM built into the software (with OS, driver and hardware support) that they use to stream the content on your phones and other devices. But with MQA, the consumer has to pay extra licensing fees for software decode and (if you buy into the value of the final hardware decode) MQA-capable hardware. As consumers, each of us has a choice, and the collective choice of the majority will determine whether MQA becomes the dominant distribution format for music or not.

The availability of high-res FLAC files unencumbered by DRM (except possibly by fingerprinting/watermarking), for purchase and download, may be a temporary phase, and will disappear if it is not profitable in a majority-streaming world. But if I do purchase such files, I feel good to know that I will always be able to find a FLAC software player that will play them back for me on practically any hardware, and in high-res on a much wider choice of sufficiently capable hardware without MQA licensing fees.

Hi-res FLAC vs MQA reminds me of CD vs SACD/DVD/Blu-Ray. In the post-optical-disk world, never having pirated any content, I am left holding a huge collection of CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray discs that I spent tens of thousands of dollars to collect over more than three decades in the case of CDs. I bought into the industry hype of Blu-ray being the best format of the future. Since CDs did not have any significant DRM, at least I can rip the CDs to FLAC, and consume them in very flexible and convenient ways (though in an era of cheap high-res streaming subscriptions, it would be insanity to put in all the time and effort to rip the music and tag with metadata). However, what can I legally do with the DRM-encumbered DVDs and Blu-rays when good quality DRM-capable hardware players are no longer manufactured? Spending like a prince on soon-to-be-worthless DRM-laden content helped turn me into the pauper I am now. This is why I am now against restrictive DRM that interferes with my abilities to flexibly enjoy what I bought, while protecting the content owner's rights. Want me to buy your high-res audio files as downloads? Sell them to me as FLAC files (possibly inaudibly watermarked to track your content), not as restrictive MQA files.
 
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mansr

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Why MQA? No filtered sources! The file-size of a 192/24 song of "The Virgin", Madonna is 135.3 MB with FLAC and 46.2 MB with MQA according to TechWire.
Stop right there. MQA doesn't even try to preserve the full resolution of that 192/24 file, so the comparison isn't fair at all. Also, there doesn't appear to be a Madonna song with that title.
 

MalinYamato

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Stop right there. MQA doesn't even try to preserve the full resolution of that 192/24 file, so the comparison isn't fair at all. Also, there doesn't appear to be a Madonna song with that title.
sorry, should be "Like A Virgin" [Digitaltrends.com].
 

MalinYamato

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Yes, you are right about my post, specifically. The jesting about MQA is not based on scientific proofs about any weakness, but is rather about my perception of the agenda behind it, and my reaction to that, both rational and emotional. Others on this forum and elsewhere, some of whom have replied to your posts, are much more knowledgeable than I about the scientific merits and demerits of MQA in terms of audio resolution. I personally have no basis to question or critique the scientific creativity and ingenuity of the creators of MQA.

In the first place, the audible benefit of greater than 20-bit 48kHz resolution remains a contentious topic. But for argument's sake, let us grant a benefit from 96/24 or 192/24 resolution, and assume you can find a reconstruction filter setting on your DAC which would allow such high frequency content to pass through. Given the availability of such resolution in the form of FLAC files and streaming (from some services), what is the benefit of MQA, unless for some reason you are wedded to Tidal? As member mansr pointed out, if you cut out the same content from FLAC files that is cut out of MQA, the resulting file sizes or bitrates will be similar, so the argument of limited bandwidth or file system space does not favor MQA. If consumers demand equivalent resolution FLAC streaming, the industry will provide it. Also, it has been mentioned in the press that many of the high-res files available as FLAC, without DRM, at HDTracks and High-ResAudio and other sources, are actually the studio masters. So, those do not have the "filters" (whatever that may be; I am interpreting it as different mixes, and not the filters of the thread title) that you refer to in a later post.

I breathed a sigh of relief and silently cheered when the Amazon Music HD announcement of last September made no mention of MQA. Amazon's HD quality corresponds to CD quality, but their growing UHD (ultra HD) collection corresponds to high-res files, access to which is included as part of the Music HD streaming subscription. I view MQA as a bad form of DRM, disguised as a benefit of compact size high-res audio of (supposedly) studio masters, but without being actually superior to other high-res audio formats that do not carry an extraneous licensing fee.

There is always DRM in the streaming subscription world that almost everyone prefers to downloads on basis of lower costs. I respect the entertainment industry's wish to protect the content it owns. I respect the artists' right to non-piracy of content that they and the industry create and distribute, and make a living off. I have never illegally received or distributed music or movies or books. Thanks to the industry, and recording and reproduction technology, billions of people worldwide are able to enjoy much more entertainment conveniently than would otherwise be possible. In the streaming present and future, the industry is able to protect their content from piracy by most consumers using non-MQA DRM built into the software (with OS, driver and hardware support) that they use to stream the content on your phones and other devices. But with MQA, the consumer has to pay extra licensing fees for software decode and (if you buy into the value of the final hardware decode) MQA-capable hardware. As consumers, each of us has a choice, and the collective choice of the majority will determine whether MQA becomes the dominant distribution format for music or not.

The availability of high-res FLAC files unencumbered by DRM (except possibly by fingerprinting/watermarking), for purchase and download, may be a temporary phase, and will disappear if it is not profitable in a majority-streaming world. But if I do purchase such files, I feel good to know that I will always be able to find a FLAC software player that will play them back for me on practically any hardware, and in high-res on a much wider choice of sufficiently capable hardware without MQA licensing fees.

Hi-res FLAC vs MQA reminds me of CD vs SACD/DVD/Blu-Ray. In the post-optical-disk world, never having pirated any content, I am left holding a huge collection of CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray discs that I spent tens of thousands of dollars to collect over more than three decades in the case of CDs. I bought into the industry hype of Blu-ray being the best format of the future. Since CDs did not have any significant DRM, at least I can rip the CDs to FLAC, and consume them in very flexible and convenient ways (though in an era of cheap high-res streaming subscriptions, it would be insanity to put in all the time and effort to rip the music and tag with metadata). However, what can I legally do with the DRM-encumbered DVDs and Blu-rays when good quality DRM-capable hardware players are no longer manufactured? Spending like a prince on soon-to-be-worthless DRM-laden content helped turn me into the pauper I am now. This is why I am now against restrictive DRM that interferes with my abilities to flexibly enjoy what I bought, while protecting the content owner's rights. Want me to buy your high-res audio files as downloads? Sell them to me as FLAC files (possibly inaudibly watermarked to track your content), not as restrictive MQA files.
Thank you very much for sharing and please allow me to share your frustration. I have wasted a lot of money on both equipment and media that are based on now obsolete formats such as Audio DVD as well as on snake oil cables. To purchase, collect, organize, store and backup steals too much time from me and I have therefore joined the trend to subscribe to music as so many of my acquaintances do. My assumption that most of you members here have switched over to do the same is probably wrong as I guess there will allays be enthusiasts who strive for perfection me included, yet my focus is on saving up for B&W speakers which for me is more important than trying to achieve marginal improvements in media. MQA is probable meant as a method to stream media and not as much for those who want to own content, but I have just leered by members here that Tidal also provides a way to buy MQA files, which surprises me. As a consumer of streams, the possibility of MQA dying away is not an issue for me and many others as it may be in your case as a collector of music. Are you gong to purchase and store MQA? I must admit that I know too little about MQA and that I do my best in trying to find needles in haystacks by reading articles, papers and watching Tubes. I do appreciate all the thoughts from you and all the members here.
 

Jimbob54

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Thank you very much for sharing and please allow me to share your frustration. I have wasted a lot of money on both equipment and media that are based on now obsolete formats such as Audio DVD as well as on snake oil cables. To purchase, collect, organize, store and backup steals too much time from me and I have therefore joined the trend to subscribe to music as so many of my acquaintances do. My assumption that most of you members here have switched over to do the same is probably wrong as I guess there will allays be enthusiasts who strive for perfection me included, yet my focus is on saving up for B&W speakers which for me is more important than trying to achieve marginal improvements in media. MQA is probable meant as a method to stream media and not as much for those who want to own content, but I have just leered by members here that Tidal also provides a way to buy MQA files, which surprises me. As a consumer of streams, the possibility of MQA dying away is not an issue for me and many others as it may be in your case as a collector of music. Are you gong to purchase and store MQA? I must admit that I know too little about MQA and that I do my best in trying to find needles in haystacks by reading articles, papers and watching Tubes. I do appreciate all the thoughts from you and all the members here.

I wouldnt bet the ranch on tidal selling MQA files. I have had a quick look and titles they sell seem to be either MP3 or FLAC. I see none from a quick look that say any are MQA encoded . I might be wrong! But Im far from sure why you would buy an album from them at the cost of about 1 months subscription to the service which definitely does have MQA files
 

Jimbob54

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The sole purpose of MQA is to make money for Bob Stuart at the expense of everybody else. Not one of their claims has stood up to scrutiny.

I've come around to thinking you are probably right. But, as a tidal hifi subscriber the mqa master titles are at no extra (or should I say optional) cost and Roon happily does the first unfold which I think many say is an improvement over CD?

Now, I did buy an mqa capable DAC but I had a need for a second dac anyway so nothing much lost their either.

The lure of the blue /green light is strong, certainly for the uninitiated. Its a genius bit of marketing regardless of efficacy
 
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